I would just like to hear some opinions on a situation that is currently a part of the basketball officiating world in my area. By discussing this I mean no offense to anyone, nor does this situation affect me personally at this time. This is not a post in anger. :)

It is known in the state JuCo ranks that "white guys are a dime a dozen". I quote that because it came from a commissioner of a decent sized conference. At the camps, meetings, etc., this opinion is well known. The last JuCo tryout that was held, all officials that were picked up were black males or females. The reason for this is to get more of a mix in the officiating business. I definitely can see their point with this reasoning. My problem with this is, are the best officials getting promoted? Another question that concerns me is, what does this say to the up and coming official (myself) about staying persistent and working towards the JuCo goal?

Please don't respond to this with "get over it" type replies. I'm genuinely curious to know if this is an issue in all areas or am I a part of a unique situation.

Thanks for your thoughts...

Fair question
 

As I have said before I am a Black male. I have gotten opportunities moving to the Chicago area that I probably would not have gotten if I was not Black. Now I am talking about HS, but I have been told that certain conferences want Black officials in them. I was even told by a white coach (all his players are Black except for one), that he wanted me to do his games and would recommend me to the assignor. The assignor appartly does not have very many Black officials in the conference and he was not happy about it. This coaches school has a huge tournament during the Christmas break, and they will not allow the assignor to handle it because he does not hire many Black officials. I guess it is about appearences and the viewing of intergrity. I did a tournament on Wednesday that had an all Black team with a Black coach. They were the only one in the entire tournament and I was under the impression that one of the reasons I did the game because I was Black. My partner was Black also.

The game has in many cases, especially at the highest of levels mostly Black players and a growing number of coaches. I think like the women's side, they want people officiating the game that reflect the participants in the game. Now, that can be a debate of whether or not that is fair, but that seems to be the reasoning. I know that I do not get the opportunity in some cases because I am Black and that I really do not care about. Each league is different and each level is different. But I do feel that this is a great question and should be discussed, because I have been told in no uncertain terms that me being a Black official, I would move up really fast. But I do believe that I must be good in order to do that. I do know that in women's college, I have heard several assignors tell me that, if it was a choice between the good male officials and the good women's official, they would choose the women offical. And at least in that case, I do not disagree. There are women playing the game, not men.

Definitely a sensitive subject, society wide, not just in officiating. I think that basketball creates some very different situations, as jrut points out. Many teams that are exclusively, or almost exclusively black. There is also a whole different structure of teams that are female, creating a division of the genders that doesn't occur in the workplace. As long as the criteria remain what jrut says, GOOD official, there is bound to be some adjusting of demographics in officiating, largely due to the fact that officiating has been traditionally a white male profession with under representation by females and minorities. As a white male, I face that same adjustment process at times.

I serve in the Navy, a traditional bastion of white male leadership. Promotion boards must, by rule, list the highest scoring female that was not promoted as well as the highest scoring minority. The boards have never had to defend their choice not to select me. I accept it as a fact of life, and go on trying to do my best and get ahead where I can. Never had a problem with succeeding, or being allowed to succeed. Made E-7 on my second board and E-8 on my first. I don't worry about anything other than what I can control.

By the way, with my girls AAU team, given a choice between a male or female to serve as a professional trainer, the female gets the call every time. I know a couple of outstanding women trainers that have played at high levels one a former UCONN starter. I want them on the court with my girls so that the girls can see the future in front of them. Had one female official this weekend as well, and I was ecstatic because my girls rarely see that. Wish they had more. I want my girls to have positive female role models.

Basketball Officiating Mirrors Business
 

I think that basketball officiating mirrors society in general when it comes to hiring minorities (blacks and females).

Two decades ago, most businesses had an unwritten (but noticeable) policy regarding the hiring and promotion of minorities. Blacks and women were discriminated against, plain and simple. As society and the law changed, business began to subscribe to the concept of truer equality for all. At first, some minorities were probably incorrectly hired and promoted at the expense of white males. But that was necessary to get things headed in the right direction. Having been with my present employer for twenty years and having watched this happen, I can say that it's not perfect yet, but we're better off now than we were then. We are a more diverse company (and society), and that's almost always good.

I think the same thing is happening to basketball officiating, and that's good, too. The sport is half women and (at least) 1/3 black, so we should have the same kind of representation among us officials. It's always going to be tough to get enough qualified women, I agree, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try. Maybe it will be at my expense (I'm a white male), but that's my two cents worth.

I only disagree with you on this level JAdams
 

I think that the business situation is a bit difference. In business you might not be dealing with one group of people. In Basketball or Football for that matter, you might be dealing with schools that have teams that are monolithic. Because officiating is part sales job, you should have individuals that affect the participants. I am not saying that in parts of business and Corprate America do not have elements of this (I should know, I worked for Walgreens about a year ago and our entire staff was Black. Both stores I worked in were on the Southside Chicago and almost all of our customers were Black), but at least in sports you are judged for the most part on wins and loses. You know after every contest who won and who lost. And because of that the best participants happen to be Black, especially in basketball. You are judged more on talent which sometimes has to do with size and ability. Not that one race over the other has a genetic advantage over the other, but Black kids see more role models that look like them and excel. It would be the same in Golf, but Golf is very expensive to play and you have to have money to play on a regular basis. Even in baseball, this is not a major issue because there are not as many players that are Black. I do not here the same cry for Black officials in that sport and do not see being Black as an advantage. At least if I do a game with a all-black team and an all-white team, the Black team can hardly say that it was a racial thing. As I said before the tournament game I did on Wednesday had that very thing. Now, I will say this, it was implied that we were calling a "different" game than they were used to, but the coaches cries does not wash as well. We even T'd up the Black coach for is behavior. But it is not the reality, it is the appearence. But understand we are also judged on our weight, our uniform and sometimes our family situation. The color of our skin is only one of many things. At least the further you move up.

Sensitive issue
 

You're right, this is a sensitive issue. I do, however, have to take ssue with a comment you made in your post. You question the quality of the officials hired from a recent JuCo camp you attended. Your questioning remark suggests the officials hired were unqualified or not the best qualified because they are African-american. While I was not privileged to have attended that camp, I would certainly believe the best officials were hired. You simply were not one of the best officials, therefore, you were not hired. It is unfair to assert that minorities are ill-equipped and unqualified simply because of their ethnicity. Do you mean to suggest that because of your WHITENESS, you are the best or better qualified? If, by chance, you were not hired because you are WHITE..., well that just doesn't happen in America. After all, WHITE men have run this country since its existence.

Re: Sensitive issue
 

I am so sorry if that is what you got out of my comments. No I feel that the better officials are hired. But lets face it, sometimes the people are hired because assignors are looking for them to hire. I did not get hired in the college area, but I did get hired to do some varsity games for a couple of assignors. I think that at least for Women's college basketball, that the women officials got first consideration. Now does that mean that they were not qualified, I would never say that. You must also understand that word "qualified" is very subjective. To one person you are qualified, to the next you might not be what they are looking for. I have only been officiating for 5 years. To some individuals and assignors, I am not qualified to do any varsity. But when I was on the court and was able to show my stuff, I was given many chances. But there were cases that I was not given any. I have been doing varsity games since my second year, both boys and girls games. Now was I more qualified than the others that did not do games, I really do not know. You would have to ask the people that hired me. To some I was, not because I was Black (at least I do not think), but because my mechanics were solid, I looked the part (slim, athletic body type) and my deameanor was good too. But I am now working in conferences that have some all-black teams and all-white teams. And if you work in the Chicago Public League, almost all the officials in the association that assigns those games are Black. As a matter of fact, I have not seen one white official that has attended those meetings. I have not gotten one Public League game assigned to me, so you tell me. It just depends on who is hiring you and what they expect. Some have different "qualifications," and I assume that I am not going to fit everyones standard, nor do I expect to. I am only at the lowest level in my state, and to many that is not good enough to get varsity games in some conferences. But I would never suggest that minorities or women that have been hired are not as capable as the white counterparts. Never would say that!!!

Re: Sensitive issue
 

LadyRef,
No disagreement here, except I don't remember seeing that Big Dave was not hired, or even that he applied.

mick

She was replying to BigDave, Rut, not you.

Re: Sensitive issue
 

Originally posted by LadyRef
It is unfair to assert that minorities are ill-equipped and unqualified simply because of their ethnicity.

I'll jump in to this and say that I don't believe that's what BigDave said or meant. In fact, he didn't say anything like that. You're attempting to put words in his mouth.

Do you mean to suggest that because of your WHITENESS, you are the best or better qualified? If, by chance, you were not hired because you are WHITE..., well that just doesn't happen in America. After all, WHITE men have run this country since its existence.

I've got news for you! It's does happen. Have you ever heard of affirmative action? I've been told some of the same things that Rut and Big Dave have posted here. If you have three officials, a woman, a black man and a white man, who have equal qualifications and abilities, The woman will be picked up first in women's ball and the black man will be picked up first in men's ball. It doesn't bother me. That's the way it is. All other things being equal, that's the way it is.



[Edited by BktBallRef on Nov 27th, 2000 at 09:34 PM]

My reply was to BigDave, not you. He questioned if the best officials were getting promoted because those promoted were African-American men and women. But since you mentioned a few things, let me say this. I, too, am an official in Chicago. I, too, am an African-American. As a matter of fact, I work a good deal of girls and boys varsity games in the Chicago Public League and just as many varsity games in the North Shore, Western Suburbs and Northwest Suburbs. The assignors (all two of them) who assign the Chicago Public League are contracted with Chicago Public Schools/Board of Education. They do not assign on behalf of the Association, rather they assign on behalf of Chicago Public Schools. There has been on occasion, white officials who have attended association meetings. In fact, it was this same association (predominantly African-American) that took a white man down state to work the girls state tournament. You also mentioned Women's basketball and women officials being considered over men. Which gender do you think is given preferential consideration in men's basketball?

Wow! Interesting subject! I am a "newbie", entering my second season. I am a woman and am trying to put myself in the position of the male official in this circumstance. I will admit that I do feel compassion for the male official who gets "passed up" because there is a desire to get more women and minority referees. My brother, who is a seasoned collegiate & minor league umpire, tells me I'm getting into officiating "at the right time". Right now, I'm just trying very hard to learn and improve. I must say that when I step onto the floor at the beginning of the game (particularly if I am with a male partner and/or officiating a boys' game), I feel a need to work even harder in order to be respected at the same level as my male counterpart....simply because of my gender. Now I am just stating how I FEEL. Most of my experiences have been positive with regards to respect shown me (other than last Saturday night when I did an 8th grade boys' game and things got ugly and I T'd a disqualified player on the bench...well that's a story for another post.) I certainly hope that I am never advanced because of my gender....the thoughts of that scare me! I hope I only advance to the next level when I have proven competence.

NO!
 

doghead,
Item: <u>8th grade game</u>
Eighth grade boys have more testosterone than they can handle.
Item: <u>Advancement</u>
Take it whenever, and for whatever the reason.

Have fun. :)

mick

Message to LadyRef
 

I'm sorry you misunderstood my post. And I really thought I explained myself clearly. :) Guess I'll have to work on that...

And yes, as BktBallRef stated, I do believe you were trying to put words in my mouth. "My WHITENESS" was never mentioned. I'm not sure I even know the definition of "my WHITENESS". Please keep this issue to basketball officiating. That was my only intention.

Be careful !
 

Big Dave,
LadyRef, being in the legal profession, was just doing a little "cross" examination of your post. ;)
mick

Have I met you?
 

If it were me, all girls and women's games would be officiated by women. The problem is that there are not enough women to cover those games. Just like men are more inclined to be involved in sports, it filters into the officiating ranks too. I completely understand, I just feel that men should not be doing girls games for the most part. But that is just my opinion.

I might have met you. I am not sure but I did go to a couple of meetings of the MOA. Could you please email me so I can find out for sure?

[Edited by JRutledge on Nov 27th, 2000 at 11:40 PM]

Sensitive Issues
 

Big Dave:

Let me begin by saying my response to you was not an attempt to put words in your mouth. I stand corrected in my presumption that you are WHITE or that you are even MALE. I also stand corrected, again, in my assumption that you were not hired in a JuCo tryout. My response was not meant to be inflamatory, however you mentioned your problem was "are the best officials getting hired," when the officials who were picked-up were black males or females. That remark led me to believe you reserved doubt on the quality of the officials hired because of their ethnicity. I can't help but wonder if the officials hired were White if you would have questioned their ability and/or qualifications. I'm trying, as I post, to find out how many minority officials and how many women officials work Division I. Historically, the sports arena has been dominated by White men. If by chance a little color has been added to the flavor, the question then becomes one of quality. When we put on our stipes and our polyester pants, we (officials inclusively) enter that 94 x 50 to do the best we can. Of course, we are not perfect but we officiate objectively and fairly. We hustle, get in position, trust our partners, call the obvious, stay in our primary and referee the defense. Well, that's some of what we're supposed to do.

Re: Have I met you?
 

I can't say for sure if we met. I am a member of other associations as well. I won't go so far to say that only women officials should do girls and womens game. I agree, too, that the number of women officials is scarce. On the other hand, the competition among men officials to gain promotion is easier on the girls/womens side of b-ball as opposed to the boy/mens side. There are a number of male officials who prefer to work the boys/mens side, but have opted to work the other gender because the competition is either less competitive or at best, non-existent. This is my second year in obtaining a boys varsity schedule. I asked the assigner if my gender as a factor. He indicated to me that my work ethic, knowledge of the rules, dedication, professionalism, and my ability to get up and down the court, were factors he took into consideration. I am not the first woman to get a boys schedule--there are 5 of us women. We train in the off-season, go to camps, study game film, read, etc. Two of the five have already done state tournaments and hopefully, another one of us will be assigned. All of this is not to boast about how good I think we but rather to say we don't sluff-off. Every game to us is a big game.

I belong to other.....
 

associations also. I just have talked to all the women that have went to the prodomiately Black association and if you went to some of the meetings that they had in October, I at least introduced myself to you.

Of course I have no problem if women want to do the boys side. If you are cabable to keep up and run up and down the floor and call what is expected (and this goes for the men too), then more power to ya. I personally do mostly boys and I am not asked to do girls unless it is a situation that the assignor needs to fill a spot. Other than that my schedule is entirely boys.

Re: Sensitive Issues
 

Hmmm. I haven't seen too many white Sumo wrestlers,
bull fighters or even soccer players lately (excluding
Euro soccer, that is. I understand there's a lot of
white people in Europe.). I guess it just depends on how
big our tent is.

Why?
 

Lets us not get silly. Sumo wrestlers and bullfighters and even soccer players are not the issue. And yes, in Europe many of the players are white. Most of those countries have mostly white people in them. Soccer is played all over the world and in those countries that have very little diversity like a Nigeria or Iran or even Brazil. That has got nothing to do with officiating in the United States of America. Sumo wrestling is not a major sport here, I believe that is Japan. Bull fighting is not a major sport here, I believe that is Spain and in Mexico.

Just a question, why do white people always need to find other things to justify their argument by going abroad or using examples that have nothing to do with the conversation? We are talking about officiating in the United States. This does not even have anything to do with officiating in other countries and practices. This is exclusively have to do with the people that make the decisions here. In our state, I can only think of one 2 assignors that are not white. The other two are African-American and assign for the Chicago Public League. I am sure that there are more, but these are the only one I have ever seen. And I am talking about more than one sport.

Re: Why?
 

Hey rut, our friend LadyRef is obviously intelligent and can
speak for herself in an eloquent manner. Maybe you should
sit this one out, OK?

Interesting topic...just as Lady Ref's feathers got a little ruffled earlier, the comment in the last post "Why do white people alwys..." ruffled mine...don't make assumptions about people based on their skin color. That's racism...as far as the topic, I have personally been told by a Div. 1 assignor that I would not be picked up because they needed more women - even though that assignor felt I was a better official...that's the way the game is played...like it or leave it...

Re: Why?
 

That is not all racism. I am simply asking the question why when someone brings a debate to white individuals, and I do recall that is what Lady Ref point was going, and this is what happens in all these dicussions. We were not talking about any other sport other than basketball, and I want someone to explain when we talk about race on any level we "white men" always have to bring up things that do not relate to the topic at hand.

I think Lady Ref's point is a valid one. It did seem like the implication is that the only factor for consideration is our race, and we are not qualified or do not have the skills to officiate what we are given. We are no more qualified or unqualified then other officials I have seen, regardless of race.

I have read the post(s) regarding "sensitive issue", with guarded concern. BigDave raises the question of color versus competence as it relates to the assignment process. He relates definite knowledge that at the last JuCo tryout that, "...all officials that were picked up were black males or females." He then clearly states, "My problem with this is, are the best officials getting promoted?...what does this say to the up and coming official (myself) about staying consistent and working towards the JuCo goal?"

Subsequent responses range from a benign and banal defense for "Black officials", grandiose ideation about a five year career, unsubstantiated and incorrect statistics about the participation of women and blacks in the sport and tangential comparison of business and society to the original post. The question is pointedly and correctly addressed by LadyRef.

The veiled reference in BigDave's post is that perhaps the best official's were not selected because they were Afican-American. He clearly identifies the process as being a problem for him and questions it's impact on the up and coming official. Surely, we can agree BigDave is not speaking about the up and coming African-American official and we can obviously agree that he is not of that genre.

I would point out to BigDave that putting incompetent or the least competent official on the floor, would be a bane to any assignor. His/her continued employment in that capacity, is directly impacted by the people they employ. The assignment process however, is rarely an objective event.

Criterion for obtaining games differ greatly from conference to conference, association to association, as well as, on the various levels (elem., highschool, juco, college and the pros). Add to this mixture nepotism, friendship, gender, indebtedness, indenture(the five year rule) and ethnicity, we can all agree, this process has historically been both prejudicial and extremely subjective, irrespective to the specter of "unwarranted" promotion.

I submit to you that this process will remain arbitrary until someone with a litigous spirit, willing to lose to gain, attacks it in the proper arena. Perhaps, it will be LadyRef, the most courageous view to this post.

Qualifications?
 

[comments deleted by Administrator - please stay on topic]

Qualifications mean nothing but to the people that make the decisions. Did it ever occur to anyone, that maybe they were the best officials?

[Edited by Admin on Nov 29th, 2000 at 01:09 PM]

back to the bottom line
 

Now that we've all had a couple of days to ponder the initial post of mine, let's get back to the first issue. Is the situation we've discussed a part of the officiating business? Yes or no?

This all came about after I discussed it with two of my partners/friends at a tourney this past week. Yes, they were black. Yes, they were two of the guys mentioned that were picked up for JuCo this year. Over a drink or two, we chatted about this issue. :)

Thanks for your thoughts.

And to LadyRef, I ain't mad at ya... ;) Maybe one day, you'll toss it as I chop the clock on the big game.

Good Luck to all of you.

With the profession being "white " for ever it is about time that the minority (race or gender) be given a chance. But regardless of the race or gender, you have to have the ability! something, or someone, can get you there, only your ability can keep you there. As a white assigner, who tries his best to be objective, I welcome and search out females and minorities and strongly encourage them to stay with officiating. We presently have 45 Varsity rated officials. Of those 45,11 are minority and 4 are female. I would like to have more female members but you all know the difficulties of recruiting females. I know that in our area that the upper levels (I assign HS and below) 2 year college, NIAA and the NCAA divisions certainly are picking up minorities and females when they are competent and available. Does it seem unfair? Probably,when the white official who has been around for 20 years looks at it. but even in the "old days" there were those officials on the "fast track" that moved up and everyone talked about it.
NO different, except that some white officials now know what minorities and female officials have experienced for years!! We have a great fraternity of people and the greater mix of people we get involved, at all levels, they better and stronger we become..

It all boils down to the fact that picking/hiring someone based on race or gender is wrong no matter the direction. Discrimination of yesterday where white males received all the good jobs is no more or less wrong that choosing a female or minority over a male or white person based on that factor. In the past, blacks and women were held back inspite of even great ability. Now, they are advanced (at times) in spite of ability. Both situations are equally wrong.

To justify the decision as a desire for diversity is just an excuse. It may help a group avoid political pressures for a while. But, it helps noone in the long run to have an unequal playing field. Doing so fosters resentment and prolongs the false idea that a group of people is inherently inferior to the others since they "need" false assistance to advance. Those that highly succeed in this society are largely those that reach their success through achievement, determination, and effort on a level or even uphill playing field and not discriminatory assistance.

Hiring Demographics
 

Big Dave -
I have been on the receiving end of the "fast track" and have faced adversity of conference barriers. Should officials become less motivated when faced with adversity? Absolutely not! Remember you never know when you may get your chance...and as mentioned a couple of times, you gotta be able to handle the game at the next level or you won't last - regardless of color. Do I think it's necessary to hire a good mix? Yes, as important as it is to hire from various locations! What if all officials in the SEC were from Atlanta?! Or the PAC 10 out of Washington? Certainly this is outside the question your asking, but the analogy can be applied for many situations.
Without trying to sound "get over it", society as well as officials are going to be faced with difficulties dealing with minority issues. It's an issue as long as you make it an issue. Why stir up closed minded people? Big Dave, take a good look at yourself and ask if you've put in the time? If you have, stay positive and know your time will come. Also understand the need for a diverse officiating world and the challenges assignors face to seek out hard to recruit areas. If officials put as much energies into recruiting, helping, and supporting their fellow officals-as they do berating we'd have no problem putting the best on the floor. Good luck with you future and keep plugging.
And to "Savoir-vivre"-I'm impressed with your doctoral vocabulary. I bet your a pleasure to communicate with on a basketball floor...know your audience ;)

Folks - I think that this topic has been exhausted... I'm closing this thread...

Thanks,
Brad