Okay, all you hoop-lawyers, and fellow-arguement-lovers. Here's a weird one for you to "interpret". I actually saw this play. I didn't call it because I wasn't sure WHAT to say!

A1 dribbled into the key, and just as she was going up to shoot, B1 fronted her with good defense and arms straight up. Now as the ball was released, B2 ran up behind B1 and shoved B1's shoulders so that B1 fell into A1 and interfered with the shot. Scramble for the rebound, quick outlet up the floor and I decided to follow the play and worry about that mess later.

So what is it?

Two questions that might help you make this call:

Is it illegal for B2 to push B1?

Is it legal for B1 to push A1?

[Edited by BktBallRef on Nov 23rd, 2000 at 09:24 AM]

I would call a foul on B2 and award two shot if A was in the act of shooting. I would also talk to B2 about their actions if possible.
keep smiling
sh

I totally agree with that assessment.

I can see 2 possible calls here depending on the situation
If B2's push of B1 into A1 was accidental then a personnel
foul on B1(it's still a foul even if they didn't intend to do it), However if B2's push was deliberate I would consider an intentional foul on B2.

Even though the contact was caused by B-2 I would still call on B-1 because B-1 made the actual contact with A-1

I agree in spirit that the foul should be on B2. But how can I call a foul on someone who made no contact at all with the opponent? I think it was intentional on the part of B2, I couldn't tell whether B1 saw it coming or not. I considered calling B2 for unsportsmanlike conduct -- a T. Hmmm.... that covers the spirit of the thing yet seems a little extreme.

Anyway, BkBallRef has asked the right questions, and I suppose the best call is on B1, even if she wasn't "in on it". Let her talk to the coach about it.

After this discussion, I expect I'll never see it again -- like carrying an umbrella so it won't rain!

juulie

Good call!

I have reconsidered my original position as far as the intentional foul in the case of B2 doing this deliberately
instead after looking at 10-3-8 I might consider this an
unsportsmanlike act or conduct and charge a technical foul.

So now do you have a personal foul on B1, since B1 had the illegal contact with A1, plus a technical on B2? You could easily make a case for this.

While you maybe able to make a case for calling a foul on B1
and a T on B2 I would probably Just call the T on B2 and ignore the follow on contact. I would also count the basket
if A1 had started his try when B2 pushed B1 if the ball goes in. The point is that A will still get 2 free throws and the ball and B2 will probably never try this tactic again.

I saw one a while ago that was as good as yours. A2 pushes
A3 into the path of B1, who is guarding A1 with the ball.
A1 is sprung by the illegal screen and moves to the basket.
All this happened right in fron of me as lead and I got A3
for the illegal screen.

In looking at the rule book one would have to say call the foul on B1. The rule book states that a foul is illegal contact (in this case a push) only against an opponent. So by rule I guess you have to call B1.

Having said that, I would have hit B2 with an intentional foul because it was an off ball push with the direct intent of disrupting play. The spirit and respect of the rules and fair play toward an opponent went out the window when he did that. I would have counted the bucket if it went, and awarded the proper number of tosses. The only thing that would saved him from getting tossed in my view is that it was his own teammate, thus the probability of a fight is minimized.

Just for the fun of it. Why not call a multiple foul. Still two shots but both players get credited with a foul.

I don't think so, Tim
 

Tim,
The case doesn't meet the definition of a multiple foul does it?
I've got B1 with a push, and two throws for A1.
mick

Multiple foul? What's that? I thought they were like ghosts - they didn't exist :-)

If anything, I'd say false multiple - because B2's action was not a personal foul.

In reality, I'd probably just call an intentional on B2, and say B1's contact was incidental.

and then what?
 

... send B1 to the line? :(
mick

No, send A1 to the line.

Mark,
I couldn't do that without calling the foul on the guy that hit him.
Oh, well....
mick

Similarly, I couldn't call a foul on a player when the foul was caused by another player.

They're teammates. If you push me and I get a foul, you can be sure that I'll be on your butt not to do it again.

From time to time, teammates bump into each other. If contact between two teammates causes one of them to foul an opponent, you have no choice but to call the foul on the kid who contacted the opponent. You can't call a foul on B2. He made no contact with A1. To think that you can is just silly.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Nov 26th, 2000 at 11:58 PM]

I agree that if it was accidental the foul should go
to the player that contacted the shooter. When you get
to where a player is purposely pushing team mates into
the opposition you now have a more than potentally dangerous situation. This must be stopped immediately! To not call
an unsportsman like T in this situation is just silly.

I think we agree. I don't think we're talking about an unsportsmanlike sitch here. The original post never said anything about the play being unsporting. But talk of a multiple foul or calling the foul on B2 has no foundation.

I agree with mick, I also would let B2 know i could and will next time call a T.

A T for what? You can't T stupid play.

au contraire
 

C'mon Dan,
All Technical fouls require a certain amount of stupidity. :)
mick

Re: au contraire
 

Yep, on 1 end or the other!

Dan_Ref; When the player pushes the 1st. time and you warn him and then does it again then i believe this to be unsporting and thus the "T". I suppose there are many solutions. Are you saying this is not unsporting?

A pushing an opponent during a live ball is a foul or an intentional foul. Pushing a teammate during a live ball play is not a foul. If he's pushes the teammate into an opponent during a dead ball, we have something different.

How can you say that you're going to call if a player pushes a second time? Players push all the time. This entire discussion has evolved into a mixed bag of semantics and distortions. To answer your question, no, it wasn't unsporting. The push wasn't part of a fight, a dead ball sitch or anything else flagrant or unsporting. It's simply a player who pushed a teammate during the course of a live ball play. The teammate happened to fall into an opponent. Fine! Call a foul on A1 on be done with it.

And don't tell players what you're going to do if they do something again. Talk to the coach if need be or handle it. But don't talk to kids like they're 4 year olds.

BkBallRef -- Actually, I thought it was rather unsporting under the wording "making a mockery of the game". It looked intentional to me, one of those stunts that an eighth grader would think might be cute. I didn't think to was simply a push.

I do agree about talking to the coach. I don't expect there are any coaches that like their kids to make up the plays, and if I said something to the coach, I expect that would be an end to it. If I didn't call the foul (which I didn't) I should have at least talked to the coach.

Oh, well, "tommorow is another day"!

[Edited by rainmaker on Nov 28th, 2000 at 09:33 AM]

I would like to clearify the type of foul we are talking about. Not your normal type of push you see through out the course of the game. As an official, you determine this player, with intent, pushes his teamate into the opponent. Your saying no way a T. OK, i guess we let him do it as many times as he wants or until all his teamates have all fouled out. Also, i don't tell players what i'm going to do through out the game. But, this is a little different, someting you don't see very often. Do you still hold the same oppinion? Please understand I am not asking this as an argumentative question, because i dought i will ever see a player do this more then once in a game, but rather to get another point of view.

That sounds like baseball
 

Admit it, rainmaker.
You also Ump on the diamond.
mick

Obviously any "push" is with intent, but we don't know so obviously what that intent is. It seems to be apparent from the course of the discussion that you must judge what the intent is. My initial reaction to the situation initially described was that B1's intent must have been to push B2 into A1, and that may have been the case. But in many defensive situations, you will see a player that is slow to rotate in a zone get pushed by a quicker reacting team mate toward the place they are supposed to have already moved to. Or, in man to man, a player pushing another player into help position on defense. There are probably many more cases where this occurs than those where a player pushes a team mate with the intent of having them run into an opponent. "Repositioning" pushes among defenders are not unsporting in nature and should never be punished with a technical, even if B1's push of B2 inadvertently results in B2 contacting A1.

Therefore, you must be absolutely certain that you have correctly discerned B1's intent, specifically, if you feel that B1 solely intended to cause that collision. If you believe that you can definitively say that B1 intended to cause the contact, I would support B1 getting T'd up the first time. Otherwise, charge B2 with the PF and let him/her glare at B1.

Bart,
I, for one, would not warn the guy doing the pushing that
he's about to get a T for unsportsmanlike conduct.
I would call the foul on his team mate and be done with it.
If he keeps doing it I imagine his team mates will get
damn sick & tired of it soon enough and they'll handle it.
If not then the coach will. It's not my job to prevent
stupid play that happens to fall within the bounds of the
rules.

Dan

Good point Dan.

I couldn't have said it better myself. I tried but I couldn't do it! :^)

Good input. Consider calling the foul on B1 for the illegal contact. B1 will take care of B2! I see no cause for a T on B2.

I think were are basically on the same page here,
If the player was just trying to place one of his team mates
in a better position the intent was not to cause B1 to foul
it just happened that way. But if B2 shoves a team mate
under an airborne player or does this just to cause a foul
that must be stopped right away....

Had a very similar play in boys varisty game last week. B2 in going for block jumped into B1 who fell into shooter A1. Foul on B1 with A1 shooting 2.
During first half so B's coach saw the entire play and got on B2. Never complained to us.
One of the unwritten rules for us is "call the obvious". B1 made the contact, so the foul is his/hers.