Game last night, mom was sitting on the bottom bleacher, banging a megaphone on the floor. Partner and I couldn't decide whether or not it was legal. Then mom stopped so we didn't ever take action. But the question remains, is that an artificial noisemaker, or not?

Yes, it is and it's illegal.

Last Friday, I had to ask game management to remove a horn, a megaphone and a pair of thundersticks. Why do they let kids in with these things? :(

megaphone being used as a noisemaker is definitely illegal. Banging it on the floor to make noise could be construed to be artificial noise. Had she continued with it--probably would have asked admin. to have her discontinue.

Reminds me--first school game this year, had a rowdy visiting crowd. Noticed sometime in first Q. a megaphone being used by one of them. Took first opportunity to do something discreetly about it as I was near that teams bench and quickly asked head coach for help on that. He recognized sit. and took care of it. I thought if I could do it quickly and not stir the potential 'hornets nest' that would be better. It seemed to work out fine.

As I think about it now I wonder if making a more demonstrative deal about it by going to admin. and/or stopping action to do so would have made a point to crowd so future incidents might be reduced. That is one other approach or take on this matter. Though I still feel good about how we handled it.

Hmmmmm, I wonder if shoes are intended to be used for STOMPING on the bleachers. You know, it really would be a lot quieter if the fans came in socks.;)

RD

It doesn't matter. It's not allowed in the facility, period.

RD,

thought of that facetious comment too, but and I take it from your message icon you are being so too (facetious).

Which brings us to the descretion and common sense theme so needed in our chosen avocation.

BBR,

Now that it's in--through no fault of rainmaker, you, me or anyother official, what do you do? It's not being used, it's sitting next to someone, though you may have noticed it being used earlier in game (as was described) but is now only sitting passively on the floor.

What about whoopee cushions? Do you really want to check to see if there is an artificial noisemaker involved, or if the noise is naturally produced? :p

You do what I did last Friday night. You quietly point out to a member of game management that it isn't allowed. That can be a teacher, prinicipal, security, any member of school administration, etc.

I don't ask them to remove it. I just point it out in that fashion and they take care of it.

Define "Artificial Noisemaker" please .....

Anything that isn't human that makes noise, including by not limited to:

Megaphones
Horns
Thundersticks
Plastic bottles w/ rocks or pennies in it
Air horns
Sirens
Anything else you can think of that makes noise.

Like kazoos. Last year, ncaa game, nice crowd, security comes to me on court during a TO in the first half.

She: "Hey ref! Can those kids be blowing into those kazoos?"
Me: (What the...kazoo? Who the hell can hear a kazoo in here) "Well....it's only legal during a dead ball."
She: "That's what I thought...(turns to upper rows of bleachers) "HEY!!!!! YOU!!!!! YEAH YOU GUYS!!!!! YOU CAN'T BE BLOWING THOSE KAZOOS IN HERE!!!!!! GIMME THOSE DAMN KAZOOS BEFORE I TOSS YOU OUT OF HERE!!!!!"
Me: shrug

Can a fan blow a Kazoo during a dead ball?

I mean I don't really give a Kazoo...just wondering.

RD

The use of articial noisemakers is prohibited at ALL times. Casebook play 1.18Sit(c).

NCAA (which this was) can use a noisemaker during timeouts or intermission or any time before the game has started.

dont understand
 

whats the big point of noisemakers? im not being a nuissance i just dont see the point of making them against the rules

Re: dont understand
 

Here's one example: Some high school gyms are incredibly small. Imagine a 30 kids with horns, thundersticks, cow bells, and 2 litre Coke bottles with pennies in them, seated behind the opponent's bench. They could, and probably would, make it impossible for the team communicate during a time-out.

Also, it's gone to the extreme in that people were bringing air horns and sirens into gyms.

i can see the airhorns and stuff but being a player myself, noisemakers make the game more fun. i love playing in a loud gym with people going crazy... it is adrenaline pumping and a lot of fun.... o well too bad i cant make the rules... two things would go for sure.

the double foul and hand checking in the post

Nothing wrong with loud gyms and people going crazy. But I can do without the artificial noise.

What's wrong with the double foul?

and, tutall, how would you get rid of hand-checking?

bktballref - i hate the double foul beacuse someone has to start it. whoever hits first is the guilty one. if a guy retaliates then it is a foul on him but if you get the first there is no double foul in my book anyways.

rainmaker - putting your hands on them is hard not to do when you are 6 feet from the basket. it gives leverage and you can tell which way they are going. as long as it doesnt impede progres i dont see anything wrong with having a hand on them. out front i believe this is different because a hand can slow them down on drives but if someone has their back to the basket they arent looking for speed. im not neccesarily saying they should get rid of it i just dont like it.

Not necessarily. The contact can be legal but then escalate. A double foul can be a great tool to clean up the post.

See the part I underlined? That's a foul. When you gain an advantage by placing your hand on the opponent, it's a foul. Should the post player who's being fronted be able to put his hands in the defender's back? No, because it places the defender at a disadvantage.

Sorry but you're not looking at this from an arbitrary view. You're looking at it as a player who wants to be able to do things the rules forbid.

What is a hand check?
 

If its in the post and he has hands on him, I don't think that's what I would determine a "hand check".

That would simply be a foul, offensive or defensive.

A hand check would be as you had stated above, out front and it has to be a foul simply because it gives the defense an advantage.

But in the post, I see players all the time grabbing their opponent and pushing their opponents. Its either a foul or not.

Thanks
David

people you arent seeing what i am saying.... im not looking at it from an arbitrary view as i stated before this is what I would eliminate.. im not saying it should or shouldnt be but it is what I would do. i am a big player and thanks to the person that said i should get in shape.... thanks for the words of encouragement. anyways, again on the double foul.... someone has to cross the line. usually one person pushes, the other pushes back, they get tangled up....BOOM double foul.... someone still had to push first. Also i am not saying i would like to lean on the guy and weight him down it is a simple hand on the side or something that doesnt harm anyone.... AGAIN I AM NOT SAYING THIS SHOULD BE CHANGED i am saying it is what i would change

And I'm saying it shouldn't be changed.

Re: What is a hand check?
 

If he has his hands in his back, it's hand checking. There's nothing that state handchecking occurs only beyond the key. If he's pushing him while those hands are in the back, then you can call it a push. But the hands on the player cam first.

And that's a hand check.

If you dont like the double foul then dont call it! That is something that YOU can change. If you say that someone had to make contact first, then call that first contact! As far as hand checking, touching, or what ever you want to call it, it is to gain an advantage over the other player 99% of the time.

TPS,

tutall is a player not an offical. He's never going to call/not call the dbl foul or handcheck til he takes off the jersey and puts on the stripes .

Easy rule:

Both hands on player - instant foul
Wrist bend back indicates pushing - foul
Leaving a hand on the player - foul

Reaching out and occassionally feeling / measuring / tracing opponent - OK

The NF doesn't agree with you. ;)

david -- players in your games don't call fouls? This happens to me in almost every game. Thankfully, no one listens to them...

tutall is going to be "calling" that foul plenty when the handcheck goes to his disadvantage. He only wants the rule changed because right now, he doesn't feel it against him much.

It depends on what rule you want to enforce. If it is not a varsity game I would let it go.

Rainmaker,

Just checked back on this thread. Good Point! I'd be hard pressed to think of a game where this didn't happen. To tutall's credit, being here and taking in the chat is more than most players are willing to do.

Someday, maybe he will be one of the many ex-players who chose to continue to be a part of the game by putting on the stripes. I'm certain his opinion may be subject to change at that point--or sometime thereafter.

hey guys... was searching through an archive and came across this. since this post i have unlaced the shoes and have become a licensed IHSAA official. I have started mainly with junior varsity and freshman games although i have done a few outside the IHSAA in summer tourneys etc... i still see the call the same way. Looking from the outside in i can see why most refs call those fouls as most of the time they look at lot more harmful than they really are. I choose most of the time not to call anything unless as i stated before it impedes progress to the basket which then obviously it has to be called. I hope to be much more active on this forum as i forgot about it and decided to head back.

as far as the noisemakers go... from the official viewpoint... they are very obnoxious

Oh, my, gosh!! Not one in a thousand does this. Snaps to you, tutall, for taking the plunge. Keep posting here. We'll be happy to see your development.

What you'll see more and more as you step back from playing is that the hand-check has more effect than can be seen. If it didn't, players wouldn't do it! It's a lot more important than you now realize, and you'll start to see that as you become more objective.

And still illegal, a year and a half later.

Was reading this thread and wondered how the heck did he become an official that quick? Didn't realize the thread started in 2003 --Duh!

I was reading this thread and wondered why it had become active again after more than a year! :)

As a player, did you feel it was a disadvantage for you as someone was hand checking you? Why is it so hard for players to keep there hands off one another? If it was a co-ed game THEN I could see the advantage! Teach them well "jed-I reff"