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Old Wed Dec 17, 2003, 02:51pm
Jerry Blum
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On our way to our game yesterday my partner brought up 2 situations in which he was trying to get input about how he should have dealt with the situation. In both of these situations the coaches were upset with their teams and said nothing to the officials.

1) Late in the game team A downby a 2 or 3, A1 shoots a 3 and makes it and gets fouled. B coach jumps up yelling at B1 "How can you do that? etc..." and slams a clip board down on the floor so that it makes a very loud bang.

2) Team A was leading and has just giving up something like a 6 or 8-0 run and given up the lead. The last basket was an easy uncontested layup. The coach turns around after the play and kicks one of the chairs and knocks it down. Then proceeds to the end of the bench and sits down.

Just wondering if anyone out there would have T'd either coach or let it go and why.
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Old Wed Dec 17, 2003, 03:26pm
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Lightbulb Let it beeeee, let it be, let it beee, let it beeeee!

On the face of it, probably would not T a coach in either situation. If the coach is not mad at you, why create a problem?

I think that it would be best to just have a slight word with the coach about his behavior and if you can do it with humor. But if I know the actions were nothing about what I called, I probably would leave it alone. I would monitor to see if that behavior turns on me, then it would not be tolerated. But if a coach is not at all mad with you about a call, just have a slight word with him/her or their Asst. Coach. But I would not go fishing for a problem.

Peace
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Old Wed Dec 17, 2003, 03:36pm
Jerry Blum
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JRut - That was my feeling on it, if it is not directed at me I would stay away from it. I don't know if my partner had a conversation with the coach from the 1st situation, but he did say something to the other coach about not doing that kind of thing.

However, he did say that he thought especially in the chair kicking case he thought he probably should have T'd him because this is Unsportsmanlike and possibly dangerous.

I wasn't completely convinced about that but it got me thinking about what other thought.
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Old Wed Dec 17, 2003, 03:45pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jerry Blum
JRut -

However, he did say that he thought especially in the chair kicking case he thought he probably should have T'd him because this is Unsportsmanlike and possibly dangerous.
The guy was obviously a poor sport, but I think it would be a stretch to T him for behavior relating to his own team, regardless of how neanderthal it was.
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Old Wed Dec 17, 2003, 03:55pm
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Had a similar situation a week ago where a player fouled out. She was unhappy and went back to the bench and kicked over one of the chairs. She never voiced a single complaint to either my partner or myself (though the coach whine about the calls a little).

We opted to just let it go. She seemed to get over her frustration with the kick of the chair and was a very vocal and polite cheerleader for her team the rest of the way. A T would only have made for an ugly confrontation and would not have improved the situation any.
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Old Wed Dec 17, 2003, 04:32pm
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Re: Let it beeeee, let it be, let it beee, let it beeeee!

Quote:
Originally posted by JRutledge
?

...just have a slight word with the coach about his behavior and if you can do it with humor. Peace
JR, all you had to do was include the next words to the tune reference in your re: line: 'wisper words of wisdom,let it be...'
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Old Wed Dec 17, 2003, 04:39pm
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Grail

In our interp meeting this year while talking about sportsmanship that exact situation was mentioned and we were told that by rule we must T them on that. Believe it might have been on the the Fed's POE this year is why it was mentioned in our interp meeting.
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Old Wed Dec 17, 2003, 04:41pm
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Re: Re: Let it beeeee, let it be, let it beee, let it beeeee!

Quote:
Originally posted by davidw


JR, all you had to do was include the next words to the tune reference in your re: line: 'wisper words of wisdom,let it be...'
I am not that big of a Beatles fan, so honestly I was not sure what the next word was. But I am glad you cleared that up for me.

Peace
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Old Wed Dec 17, 2003, 04:50pm
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why does one feel that if it was not directed to you the official that you would "let it go". how about when you here one of the players say bull shi* after a missed shot? they are not directing it to you! by all means in BOTH cases I would call a "t" because they ( the coaches) are to be an example to the players! if the coach can get away with poor behavior then the player will feel they can too.
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Old Wed Dec 17, 2003, 04:53pm
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Lightbulb That is why you address it.

Quote:
Originally posted by SteveF
Grail

In our interp meeting this year while talking about sportsmanship that exact situation was mentioned and we were told that by rule we must T them on that. Believe it might have been on the the Fed's POE this year is why it was mentioned in our interp meeting.
I agree that it is not the most sportsmanlike act, but that does not mean we have to get involved, as long as this was a spontaneous act and that act was not directed at us. If you T up a coach, now you are directly involved, the coach might have further words with you, which might warrant another T and the game becomes about the officials, not the game. Then you have to explain why you gave a T, rather than talking about the game you officiated. Ts are to make the game better, not to possibly make the game worse. That is why I said to address it and warn, but not right off the bat stick him because you might have heard something (and if you are watching the court, that might be all you know about what happen) while you pay attention to the court. No different than a coach being out of the coaching box, if he is yelling at his players, I could care little where he is standing.

Peace
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Old Wed Dec 17, 2003, 06:39pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by TPS2859
why does one feel that if it was not directed to you the official that you would "let it go". how about when you here one of the players say bull shi* after a missed shot? they are not directing it to you! by all means in BOTH cases I would call a "t" because they ( the coaches) are to be an example to the players! if the coach can get away with poor behavior then the player will feel they can too.
Who says that a player saying that would be a T? I am a basketball referee, not a language monitor. Who am *I* to determine what is profanity? I'm with Rut, if it isn't directed at me or another player and on the court, I'm not sticking my foot in it if I don't have to. When is saying something to yourself unsportsmanlike?

However, I do have a little story about a game I refereed years ago when I was just getting my feet wet. My former 10th grade teacher was coaching a freshman team at my Alma Mater and I was a last minute fill in. He got so peeved at his players he slammed his clipboard down and the metal end shot across the floor at my feet. Yup, he got one. He's now a Division I football official in the ACC.

Rich
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Old Wed Dec 17, 2003, 08:30pm
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Lightbulb I am with Rich on this one as well.

There is always degrees of certain actions. If a kid yells a profanity (or what is judged as one) at the top of his lungs and the person in the top row of the gym can hear him, that is one thing. But if a kid says the same thing to himself and you are about the only person that hears it, that is another story all together. And that is the only point I am making.

No one said you cannot have a "chat" or talk to a player or coach if their action is out of line. But at least on the second of my example, you better be careful if you first reaction is to stick him no matter what. Always use good judgement. And to me that would not be good judgement.

But that is my opinion.

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Old Wed Dec 17, 2003, 08:52pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
Quote:
Originally posted by TPS2859
why does one feel that if it was not directed to you the official that you would "let it go". how about when you here one of the players say bull shi* after a missed shot? they are not directing it to you! by all means in BOTH cases I would call a "t" because they ( the coaches) are to be an example to the players! if the coach can get away with poor behavior then the player will feel they can too.
Who says that a player saying that would be a T? I am a basketball referee, not a language monitor. Who am *I* to determine what is profanity? I'm with Rut, if it isn't directed at me or another player and on the court, I'm not sticking my foot in it if I don't have to. When is saying something to yourself unsportsmanlike?

Rich
I agree we are not language monitors, but taking care of profanity IS our responsibility. It is unsportsmanlike and definitely deserving of a T.

What if the player misses a lay up and runs back down the court and says "I f--king suck! I am the worst f--king basketball player ever to walk on the G-- d--n planet!" By your philosophy, since he wasn't directing it at an official, that would be acceptable right?

Not in my game.
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Old Wed Dec 17, 2003, 09:38pm
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Last night...
Player under his breath in lane space 1. Im about to bounce the ball to shooter
"****" under his breath I just turned my head and looked at him.. I musta looked with some kinna look in my eye cuz he said i was sorry. IT was the first shot so When I got up on the side of him i said- between me and you ima let that one go but lets keep it to ourselves next time.

Now- I did have one player kinna yell Son of a b----. But it was a pile of players so i really didnt know who it was. So the next trip down my partner had a foul and I was prepping to administer the free throws I just quitly said hey guys lets watch our mouths ok.. Next time we hear cursing we'll handle the situation if you know what I mean... one player looked at his team mate and kinna joking said .. hey man - keep your moth shut- you've got 3 fouls and that would send you home early. everyone in the lane kinna laughed. a simple 10 sec conversation solved the problem for the rest of the game :-D
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Old Wed Dec 17, 2003, 09:43pm
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Lightbulb Who can disagree with that?

Quote:
Originally posted by BigDave


What if the player misses a lay up and runs back down the court and says "I f--king suck! I am the worst f--king basketball player ever to walk on the G-- d--n planet!" By your philosophy, since he wasn't directing it at an official, that would be acceptable right?

Not in my game.
It is really hard to disagree with a tirad with a kid using many profane words. Of course I would not expect you or other officials would not tolerate that. But if a kid does what happens much more by saying something that hardly anyone can hear them, that is another situation all together. I guess to each his own, you do have the right to what you feel is best, I will use what I feel is better judgement. Ts should be used to make the game better. If you can make the game better by not giving one, in my opinion that is always a win.

Peace
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