A1 is at the spot for a baseline throw-in.

(a)He throws the ball but B1 touches the ball after the release, but before it crosses the baseline plane. The ball hits the floor OOB. The official awards the ball back to A at the spot where the ball touched OOB.

(b)Before he throws the ball, B1 touches the ball while still in the possession. The official assesses a technical foul to B1.

Is the official correct?

C'mon folks! 18 views and no replies!! :)

I did post this for a reason.

Where's that damn woodchuck when you need him? ;)

OK OK OK, I'll be your straight man.

yes and yes.

Now what?

:p

(a) should be a warning for delay of game, then a oob
(b) should be a t, if b reached through the boundary line to foul a

Jeez, it's only been up for 15 minutes, and I'm getting blasted!! :)

And I believe that the correct answer to both questions is "yes", the official is correct.

In the past, I have said that (a) was also a technical foul. But the unannounced change to this year's book, makes me think that it's no longer illegal to touch the ball in that situation.

Thank you, Chuck. :)

And how long have you been aware of the "unannounced change to this year's book?" Were you keeping it a secret? And what was your reaction when you found it? "Damn! He was right!! SOB!" :D

I just found it this morning! I danced a jig, did the Icky Shuffle, took a sharpie out of my sock and autogrphed my computer, and then, pulled a cell phone out and called my wife to tell her what I had just found! :D

Looks like Tony's hittin' the holiday punch a little early this year.

Play (a):

NFHS: It is legal for B1 to touch the ball after A1 has released the ball for the throw-in and the ball is still on the out-of-bounds side of the boundary line. Out-of-bounds off of B1. Team A gets a designated spot throw-in closet to the spot where the ball touched out-of-bounds.

NCAA: It is a violation for B1 to break the plane of the boundary line before the throw-in crosses completely through the plane of the boundary plane.


Play (b):

NFHS: Technical foul charged to B1. If Team B has not been warned for breaking the plane during a throw-in a warning will also be issued to Team B.

NCAA: Technical foul charged to B1.

I was aware of the change a few weeks ago, when Bob J mentioned it over on the McGriff board. But I didn't have my books at that point. Then I forgot about it until a couple weeks ago when somebody brought it up over here. So I pulled out the book, looked at the Penalty section, and saw the change. No, I wasn't keeping it a secret. See http://www.officialforum.com/thread/11134

And my reaction was that the rules committee realized that previously Camron and I were right; under the old ruling it would've been a T. They didn't want it to be a T, so they changed the wording of the penalty, so that the play is now legal.

You can expect to be fined by Paul Tagliabue. :)

For those that may not know, we have debated this play for years on the forum.

A1 is at the spot for a baseline throw-in.
He throws the ball but B1 touches the ball after the release, but before it crosses the baseline plane. The ball hits the floor OOB. Is this a technical foul or simply a violation by B1 for deflecting the ball OOB.

Many thought it was a T, because the penalty section of 9-2 stated, "If an opponent(s) of the thrower reaches through the throw-in boundary-line plane and touches or dislodges the ball, a technical foul shall be charged to the offender. No warning for delay required."

Still others felt that it was not a T, the "touches or dislodges the ball" meant that the ball had to still be in the possession of the thrower for a T to be warranted. After all, the rule allows the defender to break the plane after the ball is released. What's the prupose of breaking the plane if not to touch the ball? My buddy, the woodchuck, was on one side of this discussion and I was on the other.

In any case, there is an "unannounced change to this year's book?"

If an opponent(s) of the thrower reaches through the throw-in boundary-line plane and touches or dislodges the ball while in possession of the thrower or being passed to a teammate outside the boundary line (as in 7-5-7), a technical foul shall be charged to the offender. No warning for delay required.

Now, I can go to my grave a happy man. :)

AH! How did I miss that thread? I think I read the first post and Bob's reply and said the heck with it.

Well, now I'm embarassed. But I'll get over it! :D

I was right! I was right! I was right!

Sorry, my wife says this all the time, so I never get to! ;)

You still don't. You weren't right, but the rules committee liked your interpretation better than the actual one. The rule as written required a technical foul. The rules committee realized this, and decided it was too severe a penalty (like a T for swinging the elbows), so they changed the rule (even tho they didn't announce it). This was not a clarification, like the "not taking the ball OOB before the throw-in" question. They actually had to change the penalty section of the rule in order to get the rule to say what they thought was more appropriate.

Honestly, I don't really care. But I really do believe that the old wording required the T. It was a fun discussion, tho. :)

[Edited by ChuckElias on Dec 16th, 2003 at 11:34 AM]

Actually on (b), I see the answer as "not necessarily", you did not specify whether the ball was on the out of bounds side of the plane or if A1 had stuck it across the plane, in which case B1's touching would be legal.

In the thread Chuck referenced, I wondered if reaching a consensus on this call might be possible on this board....it seems like we just might be approaching that consensus!

I secretly suspect that Tony is like this much of the time ;)

Actually, I don't touch the stuff at all.

Pardon my ignorance, but when I last officiated (years ago), things were obviously different. If A1 has the ball out of bounds (after a made bucket) and passes to A2, who is also out of bounds, is it now legal for B to reach through the plane and intercept that pass?

No. That's not the play being discussed in this thread.

Ok, "other Mark", riddle me this. In this case, what would the ruling be if, after being touched by B1 before it breaks the plane, the ball does not hit OOB, but continues inbounds? Is this then just a no-call?

Yes. There's been no infraction. Play on.

That's not legal, Jesse. As Bob pointed out, however, that's also not the play under discussion. We're not talking about a ball being passed between 2 or more teammates who are OOB. We're discussing a throw-in pass is thrown directly onto the court. In your case, it's a technical foul for the defender to touch the ball. In our case, it's perfectly legal.

....A1

........A2
______________________
...........A3

After a made bucket (I know this is a different play than previously discussed), A1 passes toward A2, who is out-of-bounds, and A3, who is inbounds. B intercepts while pass is still out of bounds. T or legal?

....A1

............A2
_____________________________
..................A3

After a made bucket (I know this is a different play than previously discussed), A1 passes toward A2, who is out-of-bounds, and A3, who is inbounds. B intercepts while pass is still out of bounds. T or legal?

Which pass?

A1 to A2? Technical foul.

A2 to A3? Legal.

It's just one pass. A2 and A3 are in alignment with each other, A2 still out of bounds, A3 inbounds. It's like a cut-off play in baseball, you don't know if A2 is going to "cut-off" the pass, or let it proceed to A3. And you really don't know who's going to catch the pass if B intercepts the ball before it gets to A2.

1) The official must decide to whom the pass was being made.

2) How is B going to get to the ball in the play descirbed?

3) You've seen this play how often?

I was tought - and do - give a warning for reaching over the line early in a game - as applicable.

T next

Others do this?

If A2 is OOB, in position to catch a pass, then B1 cannot touch that pass until it breaks the plane.

I do this and have occasionally wondered if I was guilty of "OOO".

To avoid this I've adopted a mechanic of raising and lowering my arm to indicate to B guarding the thrower that there is an invisible plane they must avoid crossing.

What do you all think?

OOO? Over officitating ________?

I tell the thrower spot or run.

I tell the defender not to break the plane.

It's preventive officiating.

Jeez, Tony, don't you read all of our little tangents? OOO = omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent. Obviously, Ballen is worried that people will think he has a God-complex.

Or, he might be worried that he's obviously overly officious. Either way. :)

I reckon I jus' ain't hip to it.

Right....overly officious. It's just that I don't see anyone else issuing warnings.

Over Officious Oaf.

The sentence uses it incorrectly.

That depends on what Tony found and where was he looking? His wife might not want to know that he "found it". :D