Ok maybe this is something I should be talking to one of my mentors about but outside opinon never hurts.

How do you become a less dominont official. Im only working 2 man Sub-Varsity this season, and probably on into next season :-/ it'll happen one day. but if theres ever a double whistle I WANT THE CALL! Adn I usually try and take it. Part of it is my personality. I've always heard it takes some arrogance to do this and sometimes I wonder if I have a touch to much. I want to toss, I want to R - I want the call if theres a double whistle. Some people said this will benefiity me when I try to move up, so far I dont think I've pissed any of my partners with because they say if i ever need a partner to give them a call but its just something that I'd like to personally change. I do give up some calls but they are VERY rare.

Thanks for the input guys.

Maybe this has something to do with me being 5'8"

hey Ace, your confidence is definitely a plus. If a there is a double whistle, then someone is calling in their primary area and someone isn't, the one who isn't calling in their primary area should usually give up the call. There are exceptions, taking a dribbler from your area to the basket and such. These gray areas should be pregamed as to who will release, otherwise usually give it to the primary, unless it is a violation/foul double whistle at which point you need to get together and talk..violation before foul, foul caused violation...etc...good luck

John,

Slow down! Whenever you blow the whistle find your partner before you report anything. See his/her actions on the play. If there is a double whistle, nothing will happen until one of you takes the call. Therefore, don't be in such a hurry to take it. Think about where the play developed, and who had the better look.

The good thing is that you realize that you probably need to learn to yield to your partner occasionally. This helps with the perception of the crew for everyone in the building. The mark of being a good official is not how many calls he makes, but how many quality calls he makes. In order for you to take every double whistle, there will be situations where your call will not be the quality call for the crew, even if you both have the same thing.

Next game, if your partner has at least half a clue, tell yourself before the game starts that he/she gets first shot at the double whistles. This will let your partner feel that they are a part of the crew, and it will help your reputation among the subvarsity officials that you work with. If you get labeled by the other officials as a "call hog", many will not want to work with you and you will not see their best efforts.

I will be working on your side of town both Tuesday and Friday.

I think it's important to realize the context of the game you're in, as well as, your partner(s) you are working with.

Dominance can really get you in trouble with some supervisors.

Are you reaching out of your area and trying to take the call? The official who ends up reporting should be the one whose area it initiated in (3-person) or comes to (2-person).

Despite these guidelines, when I work with a jr. official and there's a double whistle I might offer him/her the call if it's a no-brainer or take it myself if I think there's going to be comments coming from coaches.

I think dominance also implies either you don't have confidence in your partner(s) or you want to steal the show (i.e. arrogance). Be very careful because neither of these attributes will endear you to supervisors. It's a good thing that you recognize your tendencies and have a desire to correct it.

If so, there are several guys on this board (whose names will go unmentioned) that have a lot of work to do!

How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?

http://www.kidsdomain.com/holiday/fa...p/squirrel.gif

Also, keep in mind
 

There are sometimes streaks where one official will have two or three calls in a row. We pregame this so if we have a double whistle on the next foul the person who hasn't had any recent calls will take it.

I generally only have a small number of double whistles each game; two to four. If I had a partner who took every one of them (especially if there were out of his/her primary) I'd get a little steamed. We'd talk about it at halftime or the end of the game.

Maybe I'm not as patient as I should be.

I'm 6'4".

I'm not sure how tall the woodchuck is. ;)

As reference, the drawing is approximately to scale.

My first question, Ace, is how often are you getting double whistles? Is this a regular occurance in your games? If so, then you're not working your primary hard enough. Double whistles in a 2-whistle system should be fairly rare. In a settled frontcourt situation, the only time you should have a double whistle is when there's action right in front of the basket -- rebounding and put backs, when most of the players are gathered there anyway.

And in that situation, the Lead official takes the call, period. It's not about who the "dominant" personality is. If you have a double whistle, the official in whose primary it occured will take it to the table (with rare exceptions).

Get out of the mindset that "I got it! I got it!" and get into a team mindset that says, "Ok, we got it! Go report, I got the players."

Let me tell you about a guy in my area. He and I started out around the same time. Around here, when you're just starting out, most of your assignments are 2-game sets where the first game is a 5th/6th grade game and the second is a 7th/8th grade game.

Now, this guy thinks so much of himself that he would "casually" offer to let his partner toss for the first game. You know why he did this? B/c he needed to be the R for the "big time" 7th/8th grade game. I mean, come on.

Don't be that guy, Ace. He could be the nicest guy in the world, but it makes him look like a head case. If you're good enough to be out there, that's all that matters. And if you're really R material, then you can offer your help and advice in a sticky situation anyway. Will I be excited when I'm the R for the first time at the D3 level? You bet. But does it bother me that I'm "only" U1? No freakin' way. Somebody thinks I'm good enough to be on an NCAA court -- as part of a team. I'll step up anytime I'm needed, whether I'm the R or not.

It doesn't.

Good luck, man.

How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?

[/B][/QUOTE]Now, that's a <b>low</b> blow! No wonder he's grumpy!

http://www.uselessgraphics.com/grumpy.gif

Now, that's a <b>low</b> blow! No wonder he's grumpy![/B][/QUOTE]
I was worried at first b/c I thought the short jokes were directed at me. You guys can't be talking about me, however, since I'm feeling perfectly affable this fine morning.

You guys can't be talking about me, however, since I'm feeling perfectly affable this fine morning.

[/B][/QUOTE]Yup, you look like you're in a good mood.

http://www.uselessgraphics.com/140.gif

2 questions - is that like her stage name, and does your wife know about his? :eek:

That's some subtle editing there, Dan! :)

I'm guessing that someone got home safe and sound last evening right after dinner, and someone else had an early bedtime!

No early bedtime; but yes, everybody's home safely :D

Double whistles arent THAT common... when we do have them its usually coming from my area and its a big play or its coming to my area and its a big play. Or if it was just soo obvious on a shot or something. Now, The only reason i havnt replied sooner is i was working in a distant land tonight(or so it felt like it) and Its also finals time of the year.

About being R... I usually tell my partner to take it because in our area R is responsible for paperwork in the arise of a problem so yeah LOL. But deep inside i want to tosss.. ( i should have clarified)
Arrogance? yeah I have alot of that and I'm working really hard on getting rid of that (ok atleast 1/3 of it).

I appreciate all the comments i've gotten so far from you've guys. Asking for help is a hard thing for me. thats why the ppl closest to me have a hard time believe i cough out money to goto camps to get critiqued LOL. But i have my asperations and goals and I'll do what it takes to get there (within reason). I had two really good games tonight though. Partner came out of his area on 2 calls - We talked about it at half time ... It was a pretty rough two games but we set the pace and flow and the players adatped well. Coaches realized we werent taking anything from them and stuck to the players and stayed off of our backs.

Everyone I work with seems to mind the things I think are problems.. because I called my scheduler today for jan and febuary and there were a few people who said they had wanted to work with me again but someone else already picked up those games.

But about tonights games: While I thought the big rivalry game (before the varsity game) a few weeks ago was a good game. Tonights 2 were probably my best yet. My supervisor/assignor for that area said thats the best 2nd half (of the game he was watching) he's ever seen me call and he makes quite a few of the games im working if hes not already out there with me.

JA

ACE,

I have worked with officals like you, and would say that your ego gets in your way of officiating. I have certian officials I will not work with. And you seem to fit that catagory.

benefiity????

What is right is not always popular, and what is popular is not always right.

I thought the players set the pace and flow, since the game is about THEM. And we worked with them to get that flow going and only stepped in when necessary--when they're not heeding the warnings etc.

Do you ever "mind the things that your partners think are problems"?


[Edited by davidw on Dec 17th, 2003 at 09:57 AM]

Clay -- I suspect that you're missing out on a good thing. Ace is a ref who knows his shortcomings and is working to make them less of a problem. That's someone to emulate, not avoid!

You lost me, Ben :confused:

That's the kind of game that we all like. It's nice when we can do that. But we can't always. There will be games where you will (should) know ahead of time that you will need to rein in the players. In those cases, you go out and let your first 2 or 3 calls make a statement. You grab a quick handcheck on each end; or you grab the first screen that's not quite set. Those calls should tell the players that whatever crap they pulled last night is not going to fly here.

Agree 100%. I was only attempting to clarify the difference and was refering to these types of situations when I said: "...when necessary--" You did a good job Chuck, of giving a very good specific example of this. Thanks.

Chuck,
I was just messing around with the original post of this thread. I have no clue what benefiity means..

Rainmaker,

Ace asked a question, he opened himself up to criticism. I told him, he is not the type of an offical I would not like to work with.
Could you work with this type of offical? One who is always right, always wants to be the "R", double whistle no discusson it's his call. He seems to be an "A" type personality. I have worked with his type before. And when I did I could not get out of the gym fast enough. An official is to be open minded, working with this type of official could hang you out to dry and never think twice about it.

P.S
What is great about this fourm is opinions, and that is what I gave Ace. He asked.

Remember when officiating basketball: What is popular is not always right, and what is right is not always popular

Good hearing from you Rainmaker.

Yup, you look like you're in a good mood.

http://www.uselessgraphics.com/140.gif [/B][/QUOTE]

If you are between games and looking for entertainment, go to this url:

Turn up your sound.

http://svt.se/hogafflahage/hogafflaH...r/hestekor.swf

Wait for the entire screen to load up with all 4 horses & a fence in
front
of them --

Then, click on each horse.

Re-click on any horse to make it turn off, or turn it back on again.

Right, and he opened himself up to the possibility of being a better official. That's not a bad thing.

What I'm saying is, he's NOT "that type of guy." He feels like he is, but he's trying to do something about it. The guy you don't want to work with is the one who thinks it's your problem, not his, and he doesn't need to improve. I don't want to work with that kind of guy either. But Ace is working on it, and thus not as arrogant as one might suspect.

Also notice that he's talking about his feelings. They spill over into his actions sometimes, but perhaps not in every situation. If I have the choice, I'll take him any day, and help him find a way to put all that cocky attitude to good use.

Rainmaker,

Are you heading up your apprentice group yet? Assuming you have one (a formal training system). I understand you're fairly new, but someone in your org. should take note and be getting you involved formally in that process. I would love to have you as part of ours. Appreciate your thoughtful comments.

I'm sorta betwixt and between, so I have that perspective that can be helpful. I'm still pretty green, so I sympathize with the rookies -- I remember all my mistakes (and they were many and varied!), and how painful they were. I remember what helped me get better. And I'm also doing pretty well, so I can tell rookies where to head, and how. I ran a camp for rookies last summer, and will do so again this year. I learned a lot, and taught a lot. It was a great experience. And just as you were typing, another guy in our association was typing an e-mail asking me to write him a formal evaluation. So I am starting to get involved formally in the process. It all feeds the Jones, so I'm happy to do it.!

Rainmaker,

If the info you wrote is correct, and correct me if Iam wrong. You state you have been doing basketball for the past 4 yrs. You are running a camp for rookie officials, what qualifications do you have after only 4 yrs of officating to run this camp.

Ok CLAY...Exactly which qualifications do you think she needs to have to run a rookie camp??? The camp she organized had very experienced officials doing the evaluations, and the two people I have talked to said the camp was a great benefit to them...so what is your problem with her qualifications?? Or do you (as most of your posts seem to indicate) just enjoy being obnoxious???

And to Little Chucky Elias...although I can't agree with your taste in baseball teams, it would appear that we both suffer from the same malady - that of having to put up with people who think 5'8" is short...sigh...keep the faith, buddy!

Rockyroad,

You are so right. I had no business asking for rainmakers qulaifications or being obnoxious towards anyone in the fourm, and for that I apologize.

I thought this was a place to get help, make comments with those you agree of disagree. But I was wrong. The next time I make a comment I'll make sure I stoke the ego's first as not to hurt anyone's feelings.

Fine, apology accepted...now are you going to answer the question, or not? Or are you just going to attack people and then run away when you get called on it? What qualifications do you think one needs to run a rookie camp, and what makes you think that Rain"s qualifications need to be questioned???

RocyRoad,

No, Iam not going to run away. In my state you have to be certified by the state officating board to hold any type clinics or camps. so, is she giving instruction or is she using qualified officials to teach the rookies?

In the state I work you can not be promoted to the next level until you have completed 2 yrs of lower lever officiating, and then you have to be graded and recommended by an certified official just to advance to the next level

So maybe Iam confused and things are different out in Portland, I am asking this question, not to be an as* , but to better understand. I was never questioning her qualifications. Just to have a better understanding. In this state it would be hard for me to believe anyone could hold a camp after only 4 yrs of officating, given the time needed to get promoted and rated by certified officials. And like any other state rules are different.

The qulaification question I based it on my state regulations.

In this state you must attended a 8 hour clinic every two years to keep your officiating license active.

And to Little Chucky Elias...although I can't agree with your taste in baseball teams, it would appear that we both suffer from the same malady - that of having to put up with people who think 5'8" is short...sigh...keep the faith, buddy!
[/B][/QUOTE]Aaaaaaw! Isn't that sweet? L'il Rocky's comforting L'il Chucky.

Here's a picture of Rocky comforting Chuckie- "doggie" style. They're the two on the left:

http://www.dribbleglass.com/images/oompa1.jpg

OK CLAY, I get where you're coming from now...and Jurassic - all I can say beyond that's gross is that you owe me an extra-large size brownpop now...and one for Chuck...

I don't know if there is such a thing as "certified camps" in Oregon, but it wasn't what I was running. What I did was to do the leg work to get newer officials and more experienced officials into a gym at the same time to the rookies could benefit from some hands-on evaluation. We also had speakers including a former Pac-10 ref, a podiatrist, and our local high school commissioner. We taught some rules, some interps, and how to tape yourself so that you can improve faster (everyone knows I am HUGE on taping!). Refs who came have a variety of goals, but all wanted to work hard and get better. It was a big success and will be about twice as big this year, I think. People learned a lot, and appreciated the networking. It wasn't certified, but then I don't know what a certified camp is, since I've never heard of it.

DJ -- Thanks for sticking up for me. And, hey, are you available to evaluate this year?

Gosh RM, I didn't realize a genuine compliment was going to generate such controversy (as shown by the subsequent posts).

I was asked to head our assoc. training this year, which includes a two year apprentice program for our new officials. Anyway, I asked one of our officials who just completed the two year program to be on my staff (I have 4 assisting me). I thought it would be good to get the perspective of a great new official into the training mix--which it very much has. Anyway, that's what caused me to pose the question. Goodluck and thanks again.

Well..... maybe a <b>small</b> one for each of ya!

Lah me, Rock, what ever possessed you to make such a grievous error? You must know that you just set yourself up for years of torment. Maybe not as bad as Chuck can expect, though. He still has that BoSox thing hanging over his head too.

Rainmaker, Thank you,thank you, thank you, for giving an explaination of your camp. That is all I was asking, and now I have a great understanding of your camp. What a great Idea you had and I hope next year is even better for you.

P.S.

I dont want to come across as a smartas*, but it seems everyone in this room knows each other. Iam new to this and have not be coming in here that long. But, some of the guys/girls in here need to grow some tougher skin. You make one defensive comment and here they come to attack you. It seems alot of the people in here need to get off their high horse. Some of the guys/gals give me the impression they are bigger than the game.

Clay -- I think you might get better results if you tone down your own answers a little. You are basically just asking questions, but it sounds a little hostile at times. You seem like a smart kid that could develop into a darn good ref. The best way to learn is to keep your own attitude in check, and don't react too much to the attitude of others.

Or take it out more on Dan, or Rutledge. They know how to give it back in bucketloads, so you never have to feel like you've injured anyone.

And you obviously gave some of the guys/gals the same impression,Clay.

wheres the love? can't we all just get along!
I agree with you clay, thats why i have not posted alot of questions or comments.

rainmaker,

Thank you for the advice, I dont know Dan or Rutedge, but have seen several of their post.

So you think I have a tendency to get carried away?
Just like the others I have opened my self to some criticism. So be nice, if you reply.

Jurassic Referee,

Thank you for your reply,I will leave as we agree to disagree.

Clay I love how you read my personailty by my post, considering you've never shook my hand or worked a game with me. I do admire your perception of people via the words they type on thier computer.

Now while I feel I must defend myself. I did say in a post last night that I WANT the double the whistle. or that I want the toss does not mean I always take it, or always give it or whatever. Do I buddy up with my partners? Oh hell yes all the time! Last night we had a rather flagrant push. I had the flagrant T partner had the intentional foul. Before anyone made any signal i called his name. We settled the players down kept them in veiw and discussed what each other saw. I saw B1 leave his postion on the high post and run up and push A1 so hard that he ran a row or two up in the stands. I deemed this more than just intentional. My parter saw B1 push A1 hard enough. After a breif 20 second discussion we said intentional foul and ejected the player for unsportsmanlike conduct. It was not during a dead ball so it was really hard to label a fight. Theres not a game that I've called in the 4 years that i've been doing this at any level where I havnt made the eye contact on double whistle and waited for the give or take from the partner. Ok - so there were a few times where the player cam truding down the lane and B2 took a step at the last second thus making it a block instead of a charge where I've come from lead with the signal. We all do it. I doubt your the perfect official/person to work with. I'd like to work a game with you if we ever got the chance. Theres not a signle person on this board I wouldnt call with. Hawks Coach... get your whistle and lets go! :-D . Clay - I think you took my words to literal. I want but dont always get and thats ok. Basketball is my humbling block. My entire life I've been told I exhibit the signs of a leader. You cant always be number 1 in basketball and I was simply asking my comrades... my fellow officials for some advice on how to help me hold my whistles. I always offer the toss to my co-official. They usually give it up to me. I DO strongly believe in coverage areas and always pregame that you have your area and I have mine. I'ma stick to mine unless theres alot of action and I might need to move over. My partner called a block right infront of me last night. The contact was minimal so i was going to let it go. It didnt hender the offensive players movements in anyway. He blew it from lead. Coach didnt like it one bit. I like to try to keep the coaches happy. (meaning not make calls from stupid postions and odd angles) They'll never be happy with OUR judgement. I asked for advice, maybe some critiscim. I didnt asked to be thrown in to the fire pit.

Have a good season CLAY and toss 'em straight.

Julie- If you get the chance drop me an email off the board please.

JA

Can't be a flagrant T because it's contact during a live ball. Also, by definition, it can't an intentional foul if you ejected the player. With the ejection,the only foul that you can have is a flagrant personal foul.

At the time the rule reference was a blank. Had the incident not happened I woulda been able to tell you that. The rule book was the first thing I pulled out when we got back to the locker room.

This must be one of those 'humbling block'moments, huh, ace? We all have them. That's one of the great things about this forum; we get to learn from each others'successes and failures. Thanks for sharing.