Trail usually has a "last second shot" at the end of a quarter...right?
Last night my partner and I had a last second shot from half court. (The ball had been put into to play with a throw-in under the opponents basket in the backcourt...3 seconds left in the first half.)
The shot bounced off the backboard and into the hands of a teammate standing under the basket. The teammate then shot the layup as the horn sounded to end the half...the ball went in.
I was lead and in position, a few feet from and even with the player under the basket, to make the call. I must say, it was very close...but in my judgement the ball had not been released before the horn went off.
I waved it off, I guess out of instinct, and then looked at my partner...he was at half-court and had a look on his face like he was going to call it good. I ran to meet him so we could get together and share information on what we saw. I said, "Ralph, I had the ball still in his hands...if you have something different go ahead and call it". Of course the Coach was lobbying for a made shot in the background. Ralph immediately went out of our huddle and looked at the scorer's table and waved it off...the crowd, for the team that made the shot, went nuts. The crowd for the other team cheered wildly. Go figure.:)
In the locker room at halftime we asked a couple of officials watching the game what they saw. None of them could give us a definite answer because they said it was too close.
At the time it was a 2 point game...shot would have tied the game...the game ended with the team in question losing by 20pts.
Probably will be included in my pregames as a point of emphasis for awhile.;)
Had a good laugh, after the game, with Ralph for taking the heat on a call he didn't really agree with...and me being the Referee.
Anyway...who do you big dogs like making that call? The Trail or the Lead in that situation?

RD
Oh yeah, I did talk to the coach before we left the floor and told him I would buy him a soda if, when he watches the film, he sees that his player did in fact make it. It brought a smile to his face...but I'm sure he would rather have the 2 pts. then the Soda. ;)

I have to tell you dude, that's not the issue. You placed the crew at in a very, very volatile situaion by making that call. You need to do whatever you can to show restraint in that situation.

The call belongs to the official opposite the table, not only because he usually has the best look at the shot but also the red light behind the glass. Unless there's a fast reak and the T is not in a position to make the call, the L should NOT make the call.

Pregame your mechanics about last second shots, who has clock and when and how you will communicate that during the game, i.e., are you going to communicate at 30 seconds or one minute left. You should both acknowledge clock and usually the trail will use a signal like hand to chest, to signal they have the shot.

Aw c'mon big dog...aren't ya over reacting just a bit?
"very, very volatile situation" maybe I could go with putting us in a compromising situation but... "very, very volitile"...whew! I save those words for soldiers in Iraq.

For one thing we were working two man mechanics...I was Lead and was opposite the table. The T was not in the best position to make the call...unless you think that call should be made while the T is in the backcourt.

In fact I just got off the phone with a Veteran Official, rated #1 in our association, that called me to tell me I had excellent position on the call...and in fact that would be the L call not the T's. He did say to talk about last second shots when you have an opportunity to do so during the dead ball before the throw in.

Also, in retrospect I think it was a good idea to have the T wave the call off after our brief meeting because he was the one "changing" what he had.(Even though he never did actually count the basket...he didn't wave it off either initially) If I had gone to the table waving it off, like I originally did, then it may have looked like I was "big timing" my partner.

But, thanks for the replies...I like hearing different points of view.

RD

I think you are missing the point.

The mechanic is not for the L to make this call. No mention of who has a better look and who might see the entire play. The T is the only one (or C) to make the call on the last second shot. You should not be signaling anything at all in this situation. Now, if you have talked over the situation, then you might discuss who might have what if "this situation" takes place. But you did not do that. You just made a decision and did not confirm it with your partner. That is really bad business. And if he needed help, you can give it, but it looks really bad to have two different signals on such a vitale situation. And that is not an over reaction to make that clear. The mechanics are clear, but there are alway exceptions. If you are going to do something not listed, you better make sure your partner and you agree 100% before you do something different.

Now what I always say in pregame, if the official that has the call needs help, then ask for it. But let them live and die with the call.

Peace

You can rationalize as much as you like but you made a mistake.

You can accept it and learn from it or you can deny it and rationalize it.

You choose.

But it was still a mistake.

On a fullcourt play with only seconds to play, the lead (in 2 man, as he said they were working) should have everything (entire 3-point arc, shot, etc.) in the frontcourt until the trail is in position. There is no way the trail at 70+ feet from the shot has any decent look at the play.

FWIW, I agree with Cameron. We've always pregamed 2-man this way -- trail has it unless there's a break/long pass downcourt where the trail is still in the backcourt and the shot is in the frontcourt.

Rich

My 2 cents

Trail as mentioned has final shot.
Trail will make a long distance call, mek him get his butt up the fllor to make it. Lead should almost never have a whistle at the buzzer.

There are times given closeness of game, pressure, etc that lead may take this but it will be very specific. Never from a throwin from front court, only BC and only very very specific times.

HOWEVER if it was not pregamed it will be Trails!
If you did not talk on the throw in it will be Trails!

It sounds like based on the mechanics and time on clock...You have been talked with some guys who use NBA two mechanics... Probably a no-no as a rookie...and you would need to know where to be on the floor for this too...

I have games where (ball in BC) we have a throw in (already pregamed where we talk and it will be loud enough for the coaches to hear. I have shot from backcourt, you have shot from frontcourt. Unless I am with Drake cause we both do it the same way....

But we are guys who have reffed a ton together, been to camps together, and etc...

Good Luck

I am going to confine my comments to NFHS rules and assume that the crowd noise is such that it does not cause a problem for the officials to hear it.

Paragraph 282 of the 2003-05 NFHS Basketball Officials Manual states: "The Trail official is primarily responsible for the last second shot. On a fast break, the Lead should be ready to assist if asked by the responsible official. The Referee will make the final decision in case of disagreement between the two officials or if it is necessary to consult the timer."

First a couple of comments.

1) Paragraph 282 gives the officials a good foundation for handling last second shots.

2) NFHS R1-S14 allows for a red light that is sychronized with game clock to be placed behind the backboard, but the horn and not the red light is what ends the period under NFHS rules.

The important thing in covering last second shots with a two man crew is that on-ball and off-ball coverage should not change because of a last second shot. If the Lead has on-ball coverage he needs to stay with it during the entire play and the Trail needs to stay with his off-ball coverage duties during the entire play. Both officials should be aware of the clock and should be listening for the horn.

It is not good officiating for the Trail to be watching the ball during a last second shot when the ball is in the Lead's area deep in the corner across the court from the Trail. If I am the Trail in the situation I am going to be listening for two things. The horn and my partner's whistle. If the horn sounds and my partner does not sound his whistle, he is telling me that the ball was released before the horn; if he sounds his whistle, he is telling me that the ball was not released before the horn. With this information I can take care of business.

The officials also need to be aware of who has a good view of the clock. If one is lucky to be officiating on a court that has clocks at both ends of the court, the official who has off ball coverage can get a good look at the clock. In the play described in the original post, where the players are strung out the length of the court and the Trail has off ball coverage in this situation and the Lead is right on top of the play, I would expect the Lead to be sounding his whistle if the ball had not been released before the horn sounded.

I pregame this with my partners and trust my partner in these situations.

In the initial post, RD said that the trail was standing at the half court line. Only later in the post did he change it for some reason. So, I don't know where you're getting 70+ feet from. He's 42 feet away at the most, less on a smaller court.

Now, if RD wants to change the story again, then we can certainly discuss a different scenario. I have no problem with the L making the call, IF it's been pregamed or even discussed during a TO, and IF the trail isn't in position.

But there's no problem making the call from the division line. It's done everyday.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Dec 15th, 2003 at 10:06 PM]

L should not signal anything.
 

To say there is no way is a stretch. They can make the call and should make the call. But if they need help, then it should be pregamed how it should be handled. But there should not be a call from the official that does not have this call automatically. I do not think the L should automatically make a call, regardless of what the T sees. Maybe he will help, but not just make a call because of what he thinks happen. And when the L gives help, the T should be making the final signal to the table.

Peace

Unless there is 1 sec. or less, I do not see why the Trail should not be able to hustle his butt off to get an effective look at any last sec. shot from anywhere on the floor. I think to many guys use the long distance as a cop out for not hustling! Move your a**! If you dont get a good look then go to your Lead(your backup) for help! Lead should definately not be primary!

Amen.
 

If I did not state this before, you do not want conflicting signals. Let the T make the call and if they need help, delay the signal and ask for help. Who care if it takes a couple of seconds, with the game on the line, you want to get this right.

Peace

If the lead isn't responsible for determining the validity of a last-second shot, why would the lead blow the whistle?

Heck, why do we have a whistle at the end of a period at all? (I've watched clincians go round-and-round on this one)

Why not change the mechanic to be "whoever has (or is supposed to have) on-ball coverage is responsible for determining the validity of the last-second shot?"

Yes, I said he was at half court AFTER the shot, the miss, the rebound, the horn and the subsequent last shot. My partner was in the backcourt when the 1st player took the shot(I thought you would have realized that since the Trail does just that, Trails...and the player was at half court on the shot) Again, it was a throw in from Back court baseline to a player shooting a last second shot at half court...just as I said in my original post.



You made this statement AFTER after the story was "changed"...so I guess you still thought a mistake was made with the T in the backcourt 40+ feet away and the L less than 6 feet away and in great position.

originally posted by BktBallRef
I have no problem with the L making the call,

...or maybe you are the one "changing" your story...;)


RD

RD, you asked a question and Tony answered it...if you don't like the answers, don't ask the questions in the first place...having said that, you were the official in the best position to see if the shot was off in time or not...you were not the official who needed to be signalling that...the T has the primary responsibility for the last second shot - you bust your butt back out there to your partner and tell him what you have without making any signal on the court - that way you avoid the possibility of you waving it off and partner hammering it home...that's the volatile situation that could come up... hold your signal and go communicate with your partner...

My $.02:

Rookiedude should have let this go, period. Only 2 times when the L should take this. First case is easy, when the T cannot see the play and gives it up to the L. Second case is when you have decided just prior to the play - not pregamed but communicated verbally or by signal immediately before - that the L will take the shot in certain situations.

RD, tell ya what. The next time you ask a question, just email me first as to what you want the answer to be and I'll reply for you.

Gees. Rookies. :(

Dan, why not pregamed? My $.02 on this is that I pregame it. If we have a "Christian Laettner" play (under 3 seconds, throw in from backcourt endline), last shot is Lead's. This is the only time I expect the Lead to take the last shot.

What's wrong with that approach, Dan?

To clarify, yes last second shot coverage is pregamed but then confirmed verbally or by signal prior to the last shot. Maybe better if I worded it that way.

Ok, I gotcha. Just confirm it before the throw-in, so that we both remember what we pre-gamed. No problem with that.

That is what I have been pregaming for the last couple of years.

First off some of you guys dog Rookie Dude because you think he's a rookie. Names can be deceiving. RD is a 14 year vet, number 2 in our association, our rules chairman, last 2 years state tourney, etc...a rookie by no means. Second RD is having a lot of fun with you guys.

Next, if full court pressure, and all 10 players are in the back court (lead is at half court)long pass and player A catches pass at top of key and turns and shoots...Who signals 3 point shot?

Lemme see now....player A is in the back court. Someone throws a long pass, and now player A catches that pass at the top of the key.

My conclusion is that either player A is Spiderman, or you're having a lot of fun with us guys too.

Why dontcha go ask your bud rookiedude, eh "red neck"?

You're blowing my cover Randy!

These "guys" are sharp!...and yes it is a lot of fun to ask questions and see the varied answers. Hopefully, we can all learn from these discussions...real or imagined.

RD

And everybody else is tied for first. :D

:D

RD

Yeah right. And I'm scheduled to work my 5th NBA Finals in June.

I've read the questions he asks and the replies he gives. You're the one having a lot of fun.

Jeez, and you guys thought I was grumpy today. . . :)

No, you're not Grumpy. ;)

You're not even Dopey. :)

You're Shorty. :D

[Quote]Originally posted by BktBallRef
I've read the questions he asks and the replies he gives.

OUCH!

RD

In regards to "spiderman" I don't think everyone stands still when a pass is made. So let me refresh...all 10 players in backcourt. As A1 makes long pass to A2 who has ran from backcourt into the front court and catches pass from A1 near top of 3-point line and shoots...who has 3-point attempt?

Lead

RD

They do? I will have to remember that when I officiate next time.

Peace

Nah JRut...I know you follow every Rule to the letter, so you will want to go by the STRICT written word of the officials manual which has the T making that call even though he is standing in the backcourt 40+ feet away and the L is right on top of it. Or does the manual actually state/show that?

RD

DUDE!

Dont want to sound mean or anything, but I will ask this question... As a Rookie, How could you possibly know enough about basketball officiating to take on the likes of Rut?

I know that we all here dont see eye to eye on everything, and I have never worked with him ever, but based on what I have seen him post I figure him to be reasonably prgamatic.

Here's my advice for the 2 cents its worth. You asked learn from what you asked. We all may be blowing some up your skirt ( Sorry Juulie) but we have been around.

I can tell you from experience, rookies who want to challenge senior officials everytime will last in officiating circles about as long as a shot clock in the NBA. I can tell you there are times when common sense prevails, but unless it is pregamed, unless it is communicated, stick with the book.

I did an evaluation once with a rookie who was trying to tell me a the reason he stood where he was standing on the floor (Trail about 2 steps in FC) was because the team was playing spread offense. He did not move from the magical spot all night. He had no idea what he was talking about... It was his 5th or 6th game ever...

Just be careful

No need to apologize -- I never wear skirts on the court!

"T" has the clock period. That is my final answer.

T has the clock, but from my experience, L may have the call on whether or not it's a 3.

Had a game with this situation over Thanksgiving weekend. 2 Whilste, I was L. My partner indicated the shot was before the horn, looked to me to tell him whether it was a 3 or not. He also counseled me to get to a spot where I could observer the 3 point line and freeze while he would freeze near the other end. Thus we'd both have good solid looks at the portion we needed to see.

Grail

How can the T have the shot UNLESS s/he has a hubble telliscope!! Give it to the L, s/he is standing right there.

ok,TSP you cant make all the calls. The trail has the clock on the last shot of the game. End of story,. put it to bed.

[Edited by CLAY on Dec 31st, 2003 at 03:14 PM]

not if he's already headed to the locker room to shower!

My board interpreter has taught (and reviewed for the vets that are awake) that if the ball is being inbounded from the endline, and the shot is going into the basket at the other end of the court (full court pass and shot), the new Lead will determine if the shot is good, providing there are 4 seconds or fewer on the game clock. In all other cases it is the Trail's responsibility.

This is to be discussed in pregame, and maybe a reminder in the game if there is a delay (time out, etc.), or a least a tap on the chest (it's my call at the buzzer)to be sure there is no double call.

I've made this call as T from about 2/3 of a court away. Called of a layup 'cause the kid held on to it too long. L is watching for contact, T (me) has the timing issue. The only problem I see is if there is any extra-curicular activity going on in the backcourt (T's primary), it's going to get missed with T and L watching the ball.