The officials do not recognize that Team A has six players participating during a live ball. Team A calls time out, and the time out is awarded by an official. As the players are moving toward their bench areas, an official recognizes that Team A had six players participating and immediately assesses Team A a technical foul. Is the official correct?

Sounds like an IAABO question to me. The rule does not address whether the infraction must be discovered while the ball is live.

This case play is the only one addressing the situation that I know of.

10.1.6 SITUATION: With Team A leading 51 to 50, a held ball is called. A6 properly reports and enters the game. Time is then called by Team A. The clock shows two seconds remaining in the game. After play is resumed by a throw-in, the officials: (a) recognize that A has six players competing, but cannot get the clock stopped; or (b) do not notice Team A has six players on the court. Following the throw-in, time expires. Team B now reports to the officials that Team A had six players on the court.
RULING: In (a), since one of the officials had knowledge that Team A had six players participating simultaneously and this was detected prior to time expiring, a technical foul is assessed against Team A. In (b), since it was not recognized by either official, but was called to their attention after time had expired, it is too late to assess any penalty.

The officials become aware of the infraction during a dead ball in (b) but in this case, it's after time has expired. For that reason, it isn't penalized. I take it that it would have been penalized if this was just during a dead ball in the 3rd qtr., for example. Using that logic, the official in the original play is correct.

But having read some of the wacky IAABO interpretations in the past, who knows what they think?

First, there is no such animal as an IAABO interpretations. Our interpreters make interpretations just like any other LOA interpreter would. And a good interpreter interprets the rules according to the NFHS rules and casebook plays.

Second, I agree with you that the casebook play that you quote is the most applicable one for the situation. But I think that it is a fifty-fifty call to whether a technical foul is appropriate in this situation. Since a team timeout has been granted to Team A, the ball is now dead and it was Team B that is claiming the Team A had six players on the court. I do not think that this meets the requirement that the officials discover the infraction while Team A has six players on the court while the ball is live.

My problem with your calling a technical foul is because Team B brought it to the officials attention. If the officials discovered that Team A had six players on the court after the timeout was granted I could possibly accept a technical foul charged to Team A.

When a timeout is called, bench personell (why can't this forum have spellcheck?) can come onto the court. If it was missed while the ball is live, you can't penalize it during the time out.

Calling a T during the time out for 6 players on the floor would almost like calling a T for having more than 5 players in the huddle on the floor. I don't think the rules will let us do that.

That is why I have problems with a technical foul after the fact.

You can call it what you like. But when the answer to a IAABO quiz question is contrary to the NFHS intepretation, then that my friend is an IAABO interpretation. And that has happened, as I have read them. You won't change my mind of that.

BTW, Team B pointing out the infraction has nothing to do with the T not being assessed in the case play. It's not assessed because time has expired.

IAABO exists only to educate its members as to the game of basketball.

NFHS is the sole authority in making the rules as applied to high school basketball while allowing for variations of them by a state association.

Six Players
 

Could we try this again without the NFHS v. IAABO stuff? Can anyone respond definitively by rule to this situation, which happened in Virginia last week? To emphasize, an official discovered the six players after the timeout had been awarded and as the players were walking to their benches.

The officials have definite knowledge that A was playing with six players. In my book, that's a T. Why should live ball/dead ball/time out have anything to do with it?

The problem is that the officials never discovered that Team A had six players in the game until they were told by Team B during a Team A team timeout. If the officials did not see Team A playing with six players how can they charge Team A with a technical foul.

Because it's a slippery slope. How far back in time is it reasonable, practical for such an ex post facto pentalty to be enforced. What if it 'comes to light' in the second half and happened in the first? The impact on the game, strategically, of imposing a penalty receedingly far after something has happened, can be significant.

Penalize it if discovered while the ball is live.

Sorry, I was looking at the original sitch, in which the officials discover it.

I'm not sure where the right place is to draw the line. But before the ball becomes live after the time out (again, in the original sitch), is certainly not too long. On the other hand, once the ball becomes live after the time out, I think that's too late. Hey, maybe I'm sure after all ;)

Six Players during free throw
 

During a JV game the other night, Team B was going to shoot 2 fouls shots. Team A had 6 players on the court. We did not put the ball in play and directed the 6th player off the court. Was this correct?

I would've done the same thing. Good use of preventative officiating.

Re: Six Players
 

eckert, I'm sorry but you don't get to dictate what individuals post in their replies, even when you're the one who started the thread. Somtimes we choose to discuss other issues within a thread. It's no big deal..

Mark, that's not true. You're confusing the play in the original post with the case play I posted. Read the play again.

Nowhere does it say that Team B poiinted out the six players to the officials.


Jeff, no rule says that. Further, it didn't happen in the first half and we're now discovering it in the second half. The official recognized the infraction within seconds of the team requesting a timeout. If the ball had gone OOB and he recognized it during the dead ball, would it be a T. Of course it would. This is no different. Even though this is a dead ball, there are still 6 players in the game for Team A.

Mark keeps talking about Team B telling the officials that Team A has six players on the floor. First, we know that isn't what happened in Eckert's original play but let's assume this:

Team A has six players on the floor. Team B's coach sees this but can't get the officials to see it. He requests a TO, which is granted, after which he tells the officials that Team A has six players in the game. That's a T, no matter how you shake it out.

And again, this play is no different.

EDIT: Let me say this guys. If I can get away without calling the T, I will. But by rule, I think the official at this game was correct.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Dec 12th, 2003 at 09:16 PM]

I am sorry about the Team B telling the officials. I was mixing the Casebook Play with the orginal posting. My apologies for muddyiing the waters.

Sneaky 6th Player
 

Girls Freshman game this past week(Ugly basketball...really ugly). Time out called by B (visitor) with ball to be put into play under B's basket on table side of lane. End of TO and players return to floor. My partner (Lead) checks with me before putting the ball in play. I count the players and we have 5 A's & 5 B's. I give him the "good to go" nod and away we go.

Ball is inbounded and the scrum begins tableside and works it way cross court near the end line. Lead comes across and I slide table-side to pickup the action off ball and after 3 or 4 turnovers and about 1 minutes time the horn goes off repeatedly. I've got my back to the table. I check my partner and he raises his hand and blows his whistle.

Play stops and I turn to the table and the scorekeeper waves me over and says that B has 6 players on the court. I tell them that can't be right because I counted them myself before the inbounds. I turn and count the players and sure enough there are 6 B's and 5 A's. I check with my partner and then call a T on B as my partner takes A down to shoot 2. As I report the call to the table I ask B's coach when he put in the extra. He said he didn't. He says the girl got up on her own from the end of the bench and put herself in during play. He said he didn't notice her either until we stopped play. I guess she was just trying to help out. When she came out she came up to me and said she was sorry. I told her not to do it again and off she went to get chewed out by the coach. Anybody ever had one like this?

I also had a problem with this last week. My partner gives me the sign to administer the throw in after some subbing. As soon as the team throws the ball in the other coach yells out that there are six players on the other team. Tweet, technical. I was table side and got an earful that we did not catch it (also admitted it was their fault). Felt like my partner let me down even though I know that we are both responsible. I try to count and track the players on all subs when I am not the administering offical on a throw in.

Re: Re: Six Players
 

Quote:

Jeff, no rule says that. Further, it didn't happen in the first half and we're now discovering it in the second half. The official recognized the infraction within seconds of the team requesting a timeout. If the ball had gone OOB and he recognized it during the dead ball, would it be a T. Of course it would. This is no different. Even though this is a dead ball, there are still 6 players in the game for Team A. Mark keeps talking about Team B telling the officials that Team A has six players on the floor. First, we know that isn't what happened in Eckert's original play but let's assume this: Team A has six players on the floor. Team B's coach sees this but can't get the officials to see it. He requests a TO, which is granted, after which he tells the officials that Team A has six players in the game. That's a T, no matter how you shake it out. And again, this play is no different. EDIT: Let me say this guys. If I can get away without calling the T, I will. But by rule, I think the official at this game was correct. [Edited by BktBallRef on Dec 12th, 2003 at 09:16 PM]

BBR - Being practical, one side or the other calls time out, the three players on team A have already reached the bench . . . if you didn't have th 6 in the game to begin with, you're surely not going to take team B's word for it that Team A _had_ six players in the game. Don't you think that 'while the ball is live' is a good rule of thumb?

The original post says that "As the players are moving toward their bench areas, an official recognizes that Team A had six players participating..." It does not say "the three players on team A have already reached the bench..." That's a completely different situation. If I can't verify that 6 players were on the floor, then I don't have 6 players on the floor. But if it's easily recognized that A had 6 players on the floor, it's a T. Whether the ball is live or dead is not an issue.