Out of bounds or not?

w_sohl · #1 (**permalink**) Wed Dec 10, 2003, 06:40pm

B1 is standing out of bounds, both feet planted firmly on the ground. A1 throws the ball from in bounds and it hits B1 before contacting anything else out of bounds. Another official/friend and I were discussing this and we both strongly disagree. One of us says B1 caused the ball to go out of bounds and the other says that because B1 is already established out of bounds that the ball is out of bounds as a result of A1's actions. Can someone please give an exact rules interp of who is correct. I would look for it but I can't find my rule book.

[Edited by w_sohl on Dec 10th, 2003 at 05:47 PM]

zebraman · #2 (**permalink**) Wed Dec 10, 2003, 06:58pm

B1 caused the ball to be out of bounds. Give the ball to A.

Z

Case 4.35.2

Back In The Saddle · #3 (**permalink**) Wed Dec 10, 2003, 07:04pm

I don't have the book handy either, but the ball is OOB because it struck B1.

Consider this: B1 dives from inbounds to OOB (without touching OOB) to save a ball, good play. But, if B1 isn't watching closely enough and steps on the OOB line then dives. OOB on B, right? Because B1 caused the ball to be OOB by touching it after establishing an OOB position.

BktBallRef · #4 (**permalink**) Wed Dec 10, 2003, 07:11pm

Quote:

Originally posted by w_sohl
B1 is standing out of bounds, both feet planted firmly on the ground. A1 throws the ball from in bounds and it hits B1 before contacting anything else out of bounds. Another official/friend and I were discussing this and we both strongly disagree. One of us says B1 caused the ball to go out of bounds and the other says that because B1 is already established out of bounds that the ball is out of bounds as a result of A1's actions. Can someone please give an exact rules interp of who is correct. I would look for it but I can't find my rule book.

7-1-2a

B caused the ball to goo OOB. There's no such thing as establishing position OOB.

Try this:

Thrower A1 is OOB to make a throw-in. The throws the ball, B1 deflects it, and it hits A1 who is still OOB. Who caused the ball to go OOB?

A1.

Back In The Saddle · #5 (**permalink**) Wed Dec 10, 2003, 07:24pm

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef
There's no such thing as establishing position OOB.

Hmmm, not sure I agree with this. At any given moment a player is either in bounds or oob, based on where he/she is touching the floor or last touched the floor. Same with back court/front court and in the key/not in the key. Thus the truism, "you are where you were until you get where you're going" to describe the position of an airborne player.

Mark Padgett · #6 (**permalink**) Wed Dec 10, 2003, 09:11pm

This is covered in NF 7-2-2. BTW - if this was an AP throw-in, the touch by B1 OOB ends the throw-in, so A gets the ball back at the spot where it touched B1 (this is not the same as the ball on a throw-in going OOB untouched) but team A loses the AP arrow.

Weird, huh?

w_sohl · #7 (**permalink**) Wed Dec 10, 2003, 11:07pm

He so owes me a beer....

I couldn't even believe that he was arguing that point with me, he has been an official for as long as I have, ten years.

just another ref · #8 (**permalink**) Wed Dec 10, 2003, 11:12pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Back In The Saddle

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef
There's no such thing as establishing position OOB.

Hmmm, not sure I agree with this. At any given moment a player is either in bounds or oob, based on where he/she is touching the floor or last touched the floor. Same with back court/front court and in the key/not in the key. Thus the truism, "you are where you were until you get where you're going" to describe the position of an airborne player.

How about this? There is no way for a defender to legally
"establish himself" out of bounds. If that defender accidentally goes out of bounds in the course of playing defense, he is obligated to immediately return in bounds.

BktBallRef · #9 (**permalink**) Thu Dec 11, 2003, 01:25am

Quote:

Originally posted by Back In The Saddle

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef
There's no such thing as establishing position OOB.

Hmmm, not sure I agree with this. At any given moment a player is either in bounds or oob, based on where he/she is touching the floor or last touched the floor. Same with back court/front court and in the key/not in the key. Thus the truism, "you are where you were until you get where you're going" to describe the position of an airborne player.

There's no such thing as establishing position OOB, so as to not cause the ball to be OOB if the player touches it.

I wasn't referring to any other aspect of inbounds/OOB.

Back In The Saddle · #10 (**permalink**) Thu Dec 11, 2003, 02:18am

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Quote:

Originally posted by Back In The Saddle

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef
There's no such thing as establishing position OOB.

Hmmm, not sure I agree with this. At any given moment a player is either in bounds or oob, based on where he/she is touching the floor or last touched the floor. Same with back court/front court and in the key/not in the key. Thus the truism, "you are where you were until you get where you're going" to describe the position of an airborne player.

There's no such thing as establishing position OOB, so as to not cause the ball to be OOB if the player touches it.

I wasn't referring to any other aspect of inbounds/OOB.

Okay, now I'm with you. I was using the phrase to mean the same as "being oob" with the implication that the player now completely met the criteria in 7-2-2 and did cause the ball to be oob.

ronny mulkey · #11 (**permalink**) Thu Dec 11, 2003, 08:55am

If your friend/official has been around awhile, this play used to be interpreted differently. In them old days, A1 caused the ball to go out of bounds. But, as others have pointed out, that ain't the way it is now.

Jurassic Referee · #12 (**permalink**) Thu Dec 11, 2003, 09:15am

Quote:

Originally posted by ronny mulkey
If your friend/official has been around awhile, this play used to be interpreted differently. In them old days, A1 caused the ball to go out of bounds. But, as others have pointed out, that ain't the way it is now.

I've been around for the last 45 years, and I've never heard of the rule being interpreted that way- FED or NCAA. It's always been consistent- A's ball.

ronny mulkey · #13 (**permalink**) Thu Dec 11, 2003, 09:23am

JR,

A1 passes the ball inbounds and B1 catches the ball with a foot on the line. Old interpretation was A1 caused the ball to go out of bounds.

w_sohl · #14 (**permalink**) Thu Dec 11, 2003, 09:39am

4.35.2 wasn't the sitch I described, that one is a no brainer as it involves only one team, team "A". Now, 7.2.2 on the other hand is exactly the play I described and will get my friend to see the light.

Jurassic Referee · #15 (**permalink**) Thu Dec 11, 2003, 09:53am

Quote:

Originally posted by ronny mulkey
JR,

A1 passes the ball inbounds and B1 catches the ball with a foot on the line. Old interpretation was A1 caused the ball to go out of bounds.

Ron, I have never heard of the particular interpretation that you described above. As far as I know, the pertinent rule(R9-2-2) hasn't changed since I started. The key words of 9-2-2 are "in bounds or out of bounds". That means that if the thrower-in passes the ball directly onto the court, and the pass then touches someone who is OOB on the court before the pass goes OOB untouched, then the thrower-in has NOT committed a violation.The player who is OOB has, as per R7-2-2(which hasn't changed either,as far as I know). These rules were the same 45 years ago,to my best recollection.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Dec 11th, 2003 at 08:58 AM]