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Mon Nov 13, 2000, 11:02pm
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Red team has the ball in her front court and has picked up her dribble. Tenacious white defender gets right on Red with no contact, cuts off any passing lane possibility.
Red panics and pivots with a big step, so that her "pivot leg" is at a 30 degree angle to the floor. Now, white takes a step closer and is now straddling the "pivot leg", with Red's pivot foot actually behind White. Red now trys to stand, while White maintains good verticality without reaching, but still straddling Red's leg. On the attempt to stand, Red bumps into White on Red's way up, loses her balance and moves her pivot foot. What'cha got? 
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Tue Nov 14, 2000, 12:05am
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If a player is allowed the space vertically above her, how can White occupy that space and not be called for a foul?
If a player bends over at the waist, isn't she still entitle to the space vertically above her? White wouldn't be allowed to put her arms in that space? If Red straightened up, White would be responsible for the contact.
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Tue Nov 14, 2000, 12:18am
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I agree that if there was contact and that cause the violation a foul must be called on the defense. However having no contact, i would probably have a travel.
Once a player establishes their position on the floor, are they not entitled to that position. Most times its about 1 meter(+or-) in width, seeing that the defender moved into the space of offense i would probably call a defensive foul. But as other messages have said its something i would like to see. SH keep smiling
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Tue Nov 14, 2000, 08:43am
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With the usual "I would have to see it" disclaimer, it sounds like the defender broke the dribblers vertical space. When the dribbler tried to stand and made contact, foul on the defense and one hot, irritable coach, but the right call.
Even if there was no contact, if a travel occured because the dribblers vertical space was violated, I probably would still call a foul.
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Tue Nov 14, 2000, 09:35am
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I don't believe sticking your leg out gives you the vertical space above your leg. Example: if a screener sticks out her leg and the defender, in an effort to stay with a dribbler going around the screen, runs into the leg sticking out, are you going to call a foul on the defender?
__________________
foulbuster
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Tue Nov 14, 2000, 09:43am
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I've seen situations similar to this one and wondered what to do. I am gonna ask a question here, not because I'm committed to the position it implies, but just for the sake of arguement. I can't let seven posts go by with no disagreement!!
If the defender (White) achieved her position legally, with no contact, and is completely vertical, how can she be responsible for the foul? Isn't she entitled to her space? Red was in that space, but left it,and isn't she in a different space now? I'm assuning that in moving her non-pivot foot, and leaving her "pivot leg" at a 30 deg angle Red shifted her center of balance. Now hasn't she moved some and surrendered that spot? Note she isn't vertical anymore. What if Red was standing, White came in tight, both vertical, no contact, and now Red sort of slides her foot forward between White's legs, so once again White is straddling Red's leg with no contact. Who is entitled to the space White is in?
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Tue Nov 14, 2000, 10:00am
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Again, we are not seeing it, but I think your pivot foot entitles you to that vertical space. It doesn't sound like she "moved", just bent over. Now, if it was her other foot(non-pivot) that the defender stood over, too bad I would let it go because the defender is entitled to that spot.
Now, if Red slides her foot into whites space and makes any contact or an attempt to "clear out" the defender then it is a PC foul on her.
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Tue Nov 14, 2000, 10:26am
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Quote:
go with a travel on Red. I understand the argument that Red is entitled to her vertical space and White standing over Red's leg means that she no longer has legal guarding position. But I'm inclined to give white the benefit here since she has otherwise maintained a good position. If we say White has lost her legal position because she straddled Red's obviously outstretched leg then what do we call when Red's leg is not so obviously outstretched? (Brian's case). Similarly, what if Red is down on the floor with White over her. Do we call a foul if Red stands up & knocks White down in the process? Good one Mick!
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Tue Nov 14, 2000, 10:38am
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Quote:
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Tue Nov 14, 2000, 11:06am
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If red is on the floor, and white is standing over her, yes it is a foul if white preventing or delaying her from getting up, that is clear Ad/Dis (my guess it would be a hold or a push) call. I am assuming in that case that red does NOT have the ball.
If red had the ball, and then stood up....well that is just too obvious regardless if white is standing over her or not.
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Tue Nov 14, 2000, 11:25am
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Quote:
*prevents* red from standing (actively or passively) we have a hold (both trivial cases). But if there's a free-for-all-for the ball (for instance) and white just happens to be standing over red can we say that white is responsible for contact?
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Tue Nov 14, 2000, 11:31am
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I think a scrum or "free -for- all" is a different story altogether. In that case no one really has possession or floor postiion and you just have to referee the contact the best you can.
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Tue Nov 14, 2000, 11:59am
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I think it is similar to one of those "oops" fouls when a defender falls to the floor or otherwise trips the offense unintentionally ... so the call would be a foul on the defense.
The defender likely approached the offensive player from behind, encroaching upon the offensive player's position on the court (as established by the pivot foot). From that position, it would have been nearly impossible for the defender to make a play on the ball, so IMHO the defender initiated the contact (NFHS 4-27-5)
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