Illegal Dribble

[nine01c]

I'll give this one a try. I think what you need to do is determine if the defensive player ever had player control of the ball. In both examples, it sounds like a swat, and no control. So when it hits the floor, an offical, or the opponent's backboard, it was not the beginning of a dribble. Thus, that player may retreive the ball, hold it, then begin a dribble. I picture this like a player tipping a pass between two opponents. He tips it toward the division line in an attempt to steal it, then runs and picks it up, holds, then dribbles. Of course it is legal because he did not have control.

Rule 4-15-4 (note 2) explains whan a player is NOT dribbling.