visible counts

[Matt S.]

Ok-here's one for the NCAA guys? As a college student and a ref, I've had numerous opportunities to watch "good" D-1 officals in action when they call games at my school. So I'm watching our game last night in the gym, and I'm really there to observe the officals. Now 2 of the 3 were so slow with their visible counts coming up court, it was almost 3 seconds between each arm swing. Is this something done just to show everyone they are thinking about the 10-second count, even though they use the shot clock as their reference, or are they just slacking off. I've been taught to still count visibly every second, even if you're going to use the shot clock. Any experiences??

[Tim Roden]

I have asked d2 officials this question and they say the count is just for show. They are really watching the shot clock.

[mick]

Matt S.,
Maybe they're counting by 2 or 3.
mick

[Kelly Kinghorn]

My assignors have told me that they don't care if we swing our arm as we go up court, but if the shot clock reads 24 and there is no whistle, we are in trouble.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Kelly Kinghorn
My assignors have told me that they don't care if we swing our arm as we go up court, but if the shot clock reads 24 and there is no whistle, we are in trouble.

Interesting. Doesn't the shot clock (and game clock, if applicable) start when the ball is touched inbounds? And, shouldn't the 10-second count start when the team gains control? Couldn't there be a difference between these two of perhaps a couple of seconds?

[mick]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

Interesting. Doesn't the shot clock (and game clock, if applicable) start when the ball is touched inbounds? And, shouldn't the 10-second count start when the team gains control? Couldn't there be a difference between these two of perhaps a couple of seconds?

That's a fact, Bob.
Nice catch.
mick

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Kelly Kinghorn
My assignors have told me that they don't care if we swing our arm as we go up court, but if the shot clock reads 24 and there is no whistle, we are in trouble.

As Bob points out there can be a considerable difference
between your 10 second count & the shot clock. And this
is without even considering "less than the best" clock
operators. I don't use the shot clock to judge my 10
second count and I've been told not to use it. The best
way to get in trouble: B1 clobbers A1 in the back court,
steals the ball & gets an easy 2 points because you're
looking at the shot clock instead of the players.

[Richard Ogg]

But, do check the shot clock before you blow your whistle. I watched someone else who was a bit tense. He blew his whistle for a 10-second violation and the clock read 28! Only 7 seconds had expired. (And it was not a fulty clock operator -- he just counted too fast....)

Of course the coach ate referee....

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Richard Ogg
But, do check the shot clock before you blow your whistle. I watched someone else who was a bit tense. He blew his whistle for a 10-second violation and the clock read 28! Only 7 seconds had expired. (And it was not a fulty clock operator -- he just counted too fast....)

Of course the coach ate referee....

Richard,

I'm not too sure about this. If the shot clock is at
28 and I'm at 10 in my count I'm blowing the whistle.
The rules are with me, I'm responsible for keeping time
on the court in this case. If the coach wants an
explanation I'll tell him what I've just told you and
I'll casually bring up that clock operators make errors
occasionally. If he wants to have *this* referee for lunch
he'll get a T for his dessert. :-)

BTW, it ain't all that difficult to train yourself to
count to 10 accurately, as you know. Maybe counting to
10 should be part of our preseason testing?

[Kelly Kinghorn]

Bob and Dan_Ref--

I don't disagree with what you have said, I am telling everyone what I have been instructed. It is true that the shot clock may be different, but the vast majority of the time, the clocks will start together. Richard Ogg gives good advice...check the clock before you blow your whistle. IMO, if someone is consistantly calling violations with a number higher than 25 on the shot clock, that someone will not have a job very long. I know that the rule book sides with doing this occasionally, but doing it very much is going to cause you and your assignor grief. Assignors, in my experience, are looking to minimize grief in their lives.

As to a player getting clobbered while you are looking at the shot clock...if it takes you that long to located and asertain the needed information from the clock, perhaps you are not ready to officiate games with a shot clock. Stay with the play first.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Kelly Kinghorn
Bob and Dan_Ref--

I don't disagree with what you have said, I am telling everyone what I have been instructed. It is true that the shot clock may be different, but the vast majority of the time, the clocks will start together. Richard Ogg gives good advice...check the clock before you blow your whistle. IMO, if someone is consistantly calling violations with a number higher than 25 on the shot clock, that someone will not have a job very long. I know that the rule book sides with doing this occasionally, but doing it very much is going to cause you and your assignor grief. Assignors, in my experience, are looking to minimize grief in their lives.

As to a player getting clobbered while you are looking at the shot clock...if it takes you that long to located and asertain the needed information from the clock, perhaps you are not ready to officiate games with a shot clock. Stay with the play first.

I understand exactly what you're saying & I do agree that
if you find yourself consistently "outcounting"
the shot clock then you will get a phone call from your
assignor. And you deserve whatever he says to you.
But I think most, if not all of us do know
how to count to 10 accurately and more often than not we
end up screwing the defense if we wait for the shot clock
to wind down to 25. But if your assignor tells you to wait
for 25 then you've got to do it (or find another assignor).
And I also agree that you can usually see the shot clock &
the players but god help us the first time we miss one
because the clock's not where we expect it or we're at a
funny angle.

So, how many out there are told to verify their backcourt
count with the shot clock? I am told *not* to do this,
although I'll admit I notice if the clock is not close
to 25 when I blow the whistle.

[mick]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dan_ref
[B]

Originally posted by Kelly Kinghorn
Bob and Dan_Ref--


So, how many out there are told to verify their backcourt
count with the shot clock? I am told *not* to do this,
although I'll admit I notice if the clock is not close
to 25 when I blow the whistle.

Dan,
My only shot clock is in Womens' games and there is no 10 sec. count.
Last night, I saw my first shot clock in 9 months and kicked violations twice. One I knew of. One I was told of.
But, hey, there were three of us. It was intewresting.
mick

[Bradley Batt]

I'm not too sure about this. If the shot clock is at
28 and I'm at 10 in my count I'm blowing the whistle.
The rules are with me, I'm responsible for keeping time
on the court in this case.

Dan,

I think that you'd be making a mistake if you did this. If you get that TV game that everyone wants - are you going to explain it to the commentators as well?

It is a fact that the top officials in the NCAA use the shot clock as a guide for the 10-second violation. I would suggest that most do not necessarily use "24" as the mark, but observe the clock once possession is obtained. That is, if the team possesses the ball at 33 seconds, at 22 we had better have a violation.

The clock is there as a tool - why would you not use it? A similar scenario under high school rules might be that there are 9 seconds left in the quarter and a throw-in in the backcourt. Are you going to have a 10-second violation on that play? Even if you "count" to 10? I hope not.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Bradley Batt

Dan,

I think that you'd be making a mistake if you did this. If you get that TV game that everyone wants - are you going to explain it to the commentators as well?

It is a fact that the top officials in the NCAA use the shot clock as a guide for the 10-second violation. I would suggest that most do not necessarily use "24" as the mark, but observe the clock once possession is obtained. That is, if the team possesses the ball at 33 seconds, at 22 we had better have a violation.

The clock is there as a tool - why would you not use it? A similar scenario under high school rules might be that there are 9 seconds left in the quarter and a throw-in in the backcourt. Are you going to have a 10-second violation on that play? Even if you "count" to 10? I hope not.

Yep, when I'm on CBS some fine Sunday afternoon I'll be
able to trust that my shot clock guy got it right.
And there are some good table people that I work with and
maybe I'm not so inclined to ignore the clock as reliable
feedback. But when I'm at Our Lady of Perpetual Responsibility HS with some yahoo who keeps leaning on the
clock reset button, well, you get the idea. :-)
Now, being a good official I always look at partner, table, clock, partner before a throw in so I know there are only 9
seconds left on the clock and I hold my count in the back court.

[walter]

Just to throw my two cents in. At the camps I was at this summer and through my supervisors, the consistent theme was if the shot clock hits 24 and the ball has not been established in the front court, there better be a whistle and a ten second violation. One of my supervisors even went to so far as to say he doesn't care how many times the official flicks his/her arm; that clock hits 24, whistle. As for watching the clock and not the game, at camp they stressed that the top level officials have a feel for the clock and only look up when they know it's getting close. And, if they look up and see anything under 25, and they haven't blown a whistle, they know they are in trouble. It was also stessed that many teams, especially at the college level, have one of the assistants watch the clock for just this type of situation.