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stan-MI Tue Nov 18, 2003 11:38am

Had another running clock last night, although the winning team didn't hit a 40-point margin until the final 3 minutes of the game. For the girls varsity season, that makes 5 games out of 31 with the mercy rule. Two of my running clocks involved the same losing team.

Only 2 games left, but these are in district and regional semifinals, where a 40-point margin is unlikely.

DownTownTonyBrown Tue Nov 18, 2003 04:57pm

Wow. Our season is just starting - first games were last Thursday. And no mercy rule here in Idaho.

mick Tue Nov 18, 2003 05:03pm

Quote:

Originally posted by stan-MI
Had another running clock last night, although the winning team didn't hit a 40-point margin until the final 3 minutes of the game. For the girls varsity season, that makes 5 games out of 31 with the mercy rule. Two of my running clocks involved the same losing team.

Only 2 games left, but these are in district and regional semifinals, where a 40-point margin is unlikely.

Since all the teams are playing in the state tourney, you can only hope none of your teams get mercied. ;)
Have a good tourney, stan-MI!

stan-MI Tue Nov 18, 2003 08:34pm

Quote:

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown
Wow. Our season is just starting - first games were last Thursday. And no mercy rule here in Idaho.
We still play girls bball in the fall, at least for another year.

Nevadaref Tue Nov 18, 2003 11:52pm

No mercy rule adopted in Nevada.

rcwilco Wed Nov 19, 2003 02:01am

Same in Washington, no mercy rule. I have to wonder how many states did implement it and if the players like it. I am assuming this was for the players.

5 sport ref Wed Nov 19, 2003 09:06am

No mercy rule in Illinois. We were at a clinic that had three coaches at a session where we could ask them questions. I asked about the mercy rule, and all three coaches were against it. They didn't like it because in a blow out they could get all their players in game situations whether winning or losing. I really don't understand their thinking. On the other hand, in football coaches that are getting blown out want the clock to run faster than it can so they can get the game over. Blow outs aren't fun for anybody; the players, coaches, refs or fans.

capwsu Wed Nov 19, 2003 09:57am

Quote:

Originally posted by rcwilco
Same in Washington, no mercy rule. I have to wonder how many states did implement it and if the players like it. I am assuming this was for the players.
Neither MN nor WI implemented the mercy rule.

jlope1 Thu Nov 20, 2003 12:46am

There is no mercy rule in California. I hope at some point in the future, it will be implemented.

zebracz Thu Nov 20, 2003 06:20am

Hey, Idaho here, too. ntmy (=nicetomeetyou), DownTown. :) But our GBB season has just begun (my 1st game was on Tues 11/18) it and my game last night both could have used the mercy rule. Both blow-outs. All is well, but I think most coaches I've seen would also be against the mercy rule, for the fact that they can play all of their kids...who knows 4 sho' tho' :)

mick Thu Nov 20, 2003 07:10am

The mercy rule only penalizes teams when games are played that have one poor program participating.

LSams Thu Nov 20, 2003 10:49am

Florida has adopted the mercy rule.

35 points -- second half.

There is one part of the rule that is a bit peculiar, just wondering if this is consistent with other states. Once the running clock begins, (35 points) the clock continues to run the rest of the game (except for time-outs, injuries and techs). So the situation could exist that a team that is down 35 points, accidently comes back and sends the game to overtime, the OT would still use the running clock.

Of course I want to see the team that can pull that one off ;)

mick Thu Nov 20, 2003 11:27am

Quote:

Originally posted by LSams
Florida has adopted the mercy rule.

35 points -- second half.

There is one part of the rule that is a bit peculiar, just wondering if this is consistent with other states. Once the running clock begins, (35 points) the clock continues to run the rest of the game (except for time-outs, injuries and techs). So the situation could exist that a team that is down 35 points, accidently comes back and sends the game to overtime, the OT would still use the running clock.

Of course I want to see the team that can pull that one off ;)

LSams,
I like Michigan's "Stop the clock in the last two minutes for free throws.", because it will probably get a sub's name in the paper.
Getting 'print' is often better, than getting points.
mick

Hawks Coach Thu Nov 20, 2003 12:38pm

Quote:

Originally posted by 5 sport ref
No mercy rule in Illinois. We were at a clinic that had three coaches at a session where we could ask them questions. I asked about the mercy rule, and all three coaches were against it. They didn't like it because in a blow out they could get all their players in game situations whether winning or losing. I really don't understand their thinking. On the other hand, in football coaches that are getting blown out want the clock to run faster than it can so they can get the game over. Blow outs aren't fun for anybody; the players, coaches, refs or fans.
Simple math problem. You are a top team in the state, play a pretty tough schedule, want to keep a good W-L record, and you only go 8-9 deep in a game, with your starters getting 3/4s of the minutes. The blowouts give #s 6-12 an opportunity to play - for the normal subs, it is more minutes than they usually get, for the bench crew, it's minutes they never see.

There is no substitute for game experience, so I fully understand why coaches want a chance to play their subs. As for footbal, the injury rate is so much higher that you are lways worried about having a player hurt in a meaningless game. Basketball isn't quite the same in that regard, although injuries do happen.

rainmaker Thu Nov 20, 2003 06:56pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Simple math problem. You are a top team in the state, play a pretty tough schedule, want to keep a good W-L record, and you only go 8-9 deep in a game, with your starters getting 3/4s of the minutes. The blowouts give #s 6-12 an opportunity to play - for the normal subs, it is more minutes than they usually get, for the bench crew, it's minutes they never see.

There is no substitute for game experience, so I fully understand why coaches want a chance to play their subs. As for footbal, the injury rate is so much higher that you are lways worried about having a player hurt in a meaningless game. Basketball isn't quite the same in that regard, although injuries do happen.

I'd like to point out that this is a good situation for the losing team, too. Once those third string players get on the floor, the losing team gets more experience. When it's the starters, they're learning nothing, gaining nothing and hurting plenty. We have a couple top teams here that will put in their whole JV third string after about 5 minutes, just so that the game is more interesting and a better learning experience for everyone.

I'd also like to point out that if the coach who's blowing out the otehr team is so anxious to get playing time for his third string, he could put them in earlier, before the spread gets to 40. Then there wouldn't be a running clock!

Hawks Coach Thu Nov 20, 2003 08:56pm

I am going to have a 20-25 point lead before my starters are done, in all likelihood. 25 is not out of the question if we jump our opponents early in the game. I have come back from 16, 17, and 19 down in one quarter playing running clock when a team backed off, so 25 is not as big a lead as it may seem to you.

Now I start leaning on my second string who maybe doesn't get that much opportunity for extended run. They have been giving me some fill-in minutes in the second and third quarter (say they normally get 4 per quarter) in a normal game. But my second string is pretty good, and simultaneously my opponents start going to their even weaker second string, and now the lead is 40, and I am just getting the bottom of my bench in the game.

It's easy when you don't coach a team day-in and day-out to judge what you are seeing and think we are crazy. And of course some of us are, myself included at times. But sometimes what makes sense to you isn't going to be what makes sense to a coach dealing with specific team issues.

oc Fri Nov 21, 2003 02:33am

Quote:

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
I am going to have a 20-25 point lead before my starters are done, in all likelihood. 25 is not out of the question if we jump our opponents early in the game. I have come back from 16, 17, and 19 down in one quarter playing running clock when a team backed off, so 25 is not as big a lead as it may seem to you.

Now I start leaning on my second string who maybe doesn't get that much opportunity for extended run. They have been giving me some fill-in minutes in the second and third quarter (say they normally get 4 per quarter) in a normal game. But my second string is pretty good, and simultaneously my opponents start going to their even weaker second string, and now the lead is 40, and I am just getting the bottom of my bench in the game.

It's easy when you don't coach a team day-in and day-out to judge what you are seeing and think we are crazy. And of course some of us are, myself included at times. But sometimes what makes sense to you isn't going to be what makes sense to a coach dealing with specific team issues.

I agree with rainmaker. Sub earlier and those players get their playing time. I understand your concerns coach and when I was a coach there were some times when I put in the bench early and had the opposing team come back and make it almost competitive again. Made me darn nervous. However then your starters are rested and ready to pound the other team for letting them get back on the floor. Odds are slim the subs let it get out of hand and rested starters can't take care of the situation. Although you make a good point--20 points isn't that much. 25 is pretty safe though.

Our season finally kicked off here and I have reffed 4 games. 1 jv varsity girl night and 1 jv varsity boys night. In 3 of those 4 our new mercy rule did or could have kicked in. (could have b/c they were non-league pre-season games and both coaches decided not to use the rule at one game.)

Here is how the rule is here for military schools in Japan and International school in Tokyo:

1. running clock at 40 points-stays running unless spread drops to 25.
2. Clock only stops for injuries and time-outs by the losing team.
3. Winning team must sub key players with non-starters
4. No man advantage fast breaks and no 3 pointers by the winning team.

I like the theory behind numbers 3 and 4 but don't like the wording. What is a key player? What if team has less than 9 eligible players? In addition the rule leaves no enforcement. What is the ref supposed to do if the winning team doesnot sub? Or a player goes on a fast break? Personnaly I felt 3 and 4 should be suggestions for fair play and not rules without any enforcement anyway. I asked our assignor what to do if the team does not comply and he said I should just remind the coach of the rule and if they still don't comply send a letter to the AD/principal. This seams a lot more reasonble then throwing around T's or blowing dead a play because a team is on a fast break. I still wish 3 and 4 were guidlines from a superintendent and not a rule.

--Here in Japan we don't have a state association so the league votes on any changes. From what I heard the 2 coaches I reffed on the boys game were the only 2 to vote against it. The coach from the strong team voted against it because he thought it might lead to teams hammering it in to force a mercy rule. The coach from the weaker school was against it for the same reason-and accepts there might be some lopsided scores but wants the playing time for his players to prep for their end of season tourney with other schools that are smaller and the games are more competitive. (we have a wide discrepency of schools sizes and here and teams playing each other)

[Edited by oc on Nov 21st, 2003 at 01:35 AM]

Hawks Coach Fri Nov 21, 2003 10:00am

I don't like #4 at all. If I am subbing, you have to let my subs play. Again, this might be one of their only chances to do their thing. If I have a shooter, she should shoot. If we play a running game, I want my subs to run.

I am NOT a fan of any style of play restrictions. The only thing I would alter is if we pressed normally, I wouldn't with a big lead. But we will brreak and we will shoot threes, just like always. You can't stop playing your game.

RookieDude Fri Nov 21, 2003 10:32am

Quote:

origianlly posted by 5 Sport Ref
Blow outs aren't fun for anybody; the players, coaches, refs or fans.
Some might say that is a rather extreme generalization.

Player: Tell that to the guy that sits on the bench as the twelveth man, and rarely sees any action...he might love to get in the game just to show his girlfriend and parents that he can actually particiapate and have fun doing it.

Fans: Tell that to the parent that shows up night after night only to see their kid get in a couple minutes playing time in some mop up action...and now they're going to take away that precious mop up time. Remember, that parent probably cares more about their kid playing than the outcome of the game.

Coaches: Tell that to the Coach that can now play the scrubs with some degree of comfort both in winning and in getting the dudes some PT.

Refs: Tell that to the official that just got his/her first Varsity game...only to have it ended early.


Sure, generally you may be correct in saying most people don't like blowouts...but saying they "aren't fun for ANYBODY" may be a stretch, IMO.

NOTE: We should remember also that this is High School Basketball...not the PROS or College ball. The athletic program is an extension of the classroom...don't punish the less gifted athletes with even less playing time because some of their peers happen to be more gifted...would you take away reading time in the classroom because some kids were getting their assignments done quicker or better? ;)

RD



Hawks Coach Fri Nov 21, 2003 11:29am

Great points
 
My son played HS lacrosse last year on a senior-laden team. I went to every game, saw him play in four, all predicatably were blow-outs. Got three shots on goal, one assist, all during "garbage time." Love those blow-outs!

stan-MI Fri Nov 21, 2003 03:14pm

In my experience in Michigan, where we've had a mercy rule on and off for four years, the running clock rule often causes the winning coach to substitute earlier, to avoid the running clock. The gets the subs more time and keeps the game more competitive. Wednesday night, for example, the winning team was up 30 early in the 3rd when the coach went to the 2nd string. The 4th string played the entire 4th quarter, and it ended up a 10-point game.

Coaches, how often do you find yourself in a 40-point game? These are extreme mismatches, and no one, including the winning team and substitutes, enjoys the fourth quarter of these games.

Hawks Coach Fri Nov 21, 2003 03:55pm

Quote:

Originally posted by stan-MI
Coaches, how often do you find yourself in a 40-point game? These are extreme mismatches, and no one, including the winning team and substitutes, enjoys the fourth quarter of these games.
I would say that you don't have these often, and therefore the players that get to play in these games usually don't get to play often. Have you asked the 12th guy on the bench whether he enjoys the 3-4 games a year when he actually gets on the court?

My guess is he feels like my son in varsity lacrosse, who was really happy about finally getting to play. He watched about 8 games before he saw the field. That's a lot of practice time and ball fetching during games for very little run - you really want the run that you get. He hoped for blowouts and once he was in, didn't care what the score was. He played his butt off like it was 0-0, as did every other sophomore who had waited all year to play. They knew the teams that were likely to be blowout games and just wanted it to get ugly early so he could get more time!

stan-MI Fri Nov 21, 2003 04:54pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
[
I would say that you don't have these often, and therefore the players that get to play in these games usually don't get to play often. Have you asked the 12th guy on the bench whether he enjoys the 3-4 games a year when he actually gets on the court?

[/B]
Maybe you should go to your bench earlier.

Hawks Coach Fri Nov 21, 2003 05:03pm

Easy to judge form afar
 
Quote:

Originally posted by stan-MI
Quote:

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
I would say that you don't have these often, and therefore the players that get to play in these games usually don't get to play often. Have you asked the 12th guy on the bench whether he enjoys the 3-4 games a year when he actually gets on the court?

Maybe you should go to your bench earlier.

AAU I can use my entire bench and they all get plenty of play. But then again, in AAU you have the pick of the lot, and even when there is a drop-off between starters and bench, it often isn't severe.

In HS, you often have a few players who can't play anywhere near the level of your starters. When they are seniors, they'll be starting, but right now, they aren't at that level. So they see a lot of pine time. Every HS coach I talk to has the same issue, and all seem to handle it the same way.

oc Fri Nov 21, 2003 09:30pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
I don't like #4 at all. If I am subbing, you have to let my subs play. Again, this might be one of their only chances to do their thing. If I have a shooter, she should shoot. If we play a running game, I want my subs to run.

I am NOT a fan of any style of play restrictions. The only thing I would alter is if we pressed normally, I wouldn't with a big lead. But we will brreak and we will shoot threes, just like always. You can't stop playing your game.


totally agree with you. I forgot to add their is also a no press rule and no man defenses. The no pressing makes sense and I think any coach that presses up that much needs to get dragged into the principal's office.

But the no fast break and no three's takes away the subs chance to play ball.

--Back when I coached my biggest loss ever was by about 40. The other coach played his bench most of the second half -never pressed and one of the bench guys started hitting 3's like crazy. I have no problem with that. The kid got his chance to show his stuff and probably earned his way up from the third string to second or higher in that game.

JRutledge Sat Nov 22, 2003 02:47am

You sound like you were at the IACAO Clinic
 
Quote:

Originally posted by 5 sport ref
No mercy rule in Illinois. We were at a clinic that had three coaches at a session where we could ask them questions. I asked about the mercy rule, and all three coaches were against it. They didn't like it because in a blow out they could get all their players in game situations whether winning or losing.
This is not entirely true. We do have a mercy rule but it is not for all games. It only applies to tournament play (not post season play) if the host wants to adopt it and the officials and teams have been informed before the tournament begins. The rule comes into affect during a 30 point lead or more in the fourth quarter only. Also if the lead gets lower than 30, then the clock still runs during all times except timeouts (team or injury)


Quote:

Originally posted by 5 sport ref
I really don't understand their thinking. On the other hand, in football coaches that are getting blown out want the clock to run faster than it can so they can get the game over. Blow outs aren't fun for anybody; the players, coaches, refs or fans.
In football players can get hurt and hurt seriously. That just does not happen that much in basketball. A weaker football team can get literally beat up in a blowout. Cannot say that happens that much during a basketball game. Because if a team is getting blowout, it has more to do with they team not making shots. The game of football has many more breaks in the action and delays are much more common. Even in a bad blowout in basketball, the clock can run for a few minutes without stopping. That does not happen in football. Football plays last about 7 seconds long (if that). Incomplete passes, penalties, plays out of bounds all delay the game considerably. During a basketball game, the clock does not really stop for that many long periods of time. Usually a blowout in basketball is not necessarily that much longer than a closer game. Actually it is the closer and tighter games that last longer. More timeouts and more FTs at the end of the game to lengthen the game.

Quote:

Originally posted by 5 sport ref

Blow outs aren't fun for anybody; the players, coaches, refs or fans.

I would not go that far either. Sometimes blowouts are less stressful from an officiating point of view than a tight nail bitter. The outcome is not going to hindge on a call I might have to make in the closing seconds. In a blowout the outcome is long decided and you can cruise to the finish. And the bench players get a chance to play that hardly ever play during important moments of a game. It is nice to see the crowd go crazy over the 15th player on the team score his only basket of his season. Do not get me wrong, I love a close and tight game, but it is nice to have a blowout to offset those close ones every now and again. ;)

Peace


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