He's the sitch from a HS Preseason game I saw. A1 releases ball on a try. While the ball is in flight, R1 blows whistle. Ball enters basket! R1 and U1 meet and decide it was an inavertant whistle. They count the hoop, and award ball to B for throw in on the end line. I think they got this wrong, as the ball becomes dead immediately, ball awarded by AP arrow. Your thoughts?

Ball in flight on a try is not dead until try is complete. They got it right.

I'd like to agree with Hawk, but case 7.5.4 specifically addresses this play and says to go with the AP arrow.

Ruling 7.5.4 says" (c) the ball is put in play by the team entitled to the throw-in using the AP procedure, nothing about the counting of the hoop. Let's say Team A is entitled to the AP throw, and we count the hoop as Hawk said, do we give the ball back to Team A?

Coach is half right. The ball indeed is not made dead by the inadvertant whistle. However, b/c the whistle sounded while there was no team control by either team, play should resume with an AP throw-in.

I don't like it, but that's the interp. Although, now that I re-read the case, it doesn't say whether the shot is successful. Hmmmm.

Dan, can we use this case for questions #7 and #25 on our ECAC test? :)

[Edited by ChuckElias on Nov 7th, 2003 at 11:35 AM]

My electronic version of the case book does not have a 7.5.4 - can you give the exact interp language? I find in other areas some different guidance, but nothing precisely on this case. If A is in the process of shooting a FT and B violates accompanied accidental whistle, ball is dead. If ball is in flight, try is allowed to complete, then violation penalized if appropriate.

Then there is 2.11.10 that says go to AP arrow when there is no team control and an accidental whistle. But it does not specifically refer to a ball in flight on a try. A violation during a try makes the ball dead (BI in 6.7 A). Foul by defense, ball remains live. Foul by offense, ball is dead. Since this is no violation and no foul, it seems that the ball should remain live until try is complete. If basket is good, ball to B on baseline, otherwise AP.

Anything else would be uncivilized :)

After a little more searching, I checked 6-3. Article 3 reads:

"In all jump-ball situations other than the start of the game and each extra period, an alternating-possession throw-in shall result when:

e. The ball becomes dead when neither team is in control and no goal or infraction or end of a quarter or extra period is involved."

So maybe we read this as saying that if there is a goal involved, you don't use the AP arrow, even if the whistle blows when there's no team control.

I like that reading a LOT better than my previous attempt.

So Dan, can we use this citation for questions #7 and #25?

7.5.4:
An official sounds his/her whistle accidentally: (c) while A1's try attempt is in flight and there is neither player nor team control; or (d) after A1's try had gone through the cylinder for a succesful field goal.
Ruling: In (c), the ball is put in play by the team entitled to the throw-in using the AP procedure. In (d), even though, by rule, there is no team control during this dead-ball period, the ball would be given to Team B for a throw-in anywhere along the end line. Team B would have clearly received the ball had the offical not accidentally sounded his/her whistle.

I agree, if the try is missed, go with the AP. But what if it's made? Maybe the case is just worded pourly. There is no rule that would support NOT counting the basket. And because a goal was scored, Team B should get the throw-in.

So, based on (d), give it to B and let 'em run the endline.

I don't know what the rule book says, but the right thing to do is to give the ball to B to run the endline. Heck, the ball went in!

Case (d) does not cover the original situation. Case (c) does. Case (c) is "while A1's try attempt is IN FLIGHT and there is neither player nor team control." The original sitch is "A1 releases ball on a try. While the ball is IN FLIGHT, R1 blows whistle. Ball enters basket!"

Case (d), on the other hand, is for the situation where the accidental whistle comes "AFTER A1's try had gone through the cylinder for a successful field goal."

The correct answer is that "the ball is put in play by the team entitled to the throw-in using the alternating-possession procedure." It ain't civilized, but it's correct.

Back in saddle
Are you counting the goal, or just awarding the ball? It seems to me to be two separate questions. 7.5.4 c) does not clearly address it, although I lean toward not counting the goal based on this reading of c and that is an unfortunate and decidely distasteful outcome. It seems to be inconsistent with all other rulings in similar situations, and not justified by the actual facts of the matter (i.e., once a ball is released, what is going to happen will happen, regardless of the accidental whistle).

My conclusion from reading (c) is that the basket is not counted. If it were supposed to be counted, you'd award the ball to team B and not go with the arrow.

I agree with your feeling about this outcome entirely. It just feels wrong. However, trying to see what the other side of the argument might be, you could argue that the accidental whistle MAY have also prevented a goaltending or BI from occurring and that the matter is not necessarily decided once the ball is released. It's not a great argument, but it acknowledges that an accidental whistle could potentially impact any play, including this one. And once you acknowledge that, I think you have to go with the "lowest common denominator" approach, which is call it dead and go with the arrow.

True, but the comment after case (d) applies equally to (c):
"Team B would have clearly received the ball had the offical not accidentally sounded his/her whistle." The spirit here is that if B obviously should have the ball, then they get the ball.

In (c), there is no indication that the ball went in the basket. If it doesn't, then obviously, we go to the arrow. But if it does, then just as obviously, Team B should have the ball.

By my read there is no specific wording anywhere in the rulebook telling us how to handle this specific situation. In these cases the Referee gets to rule.

Based on that, the spirit of the rule says "Count the basket, award the ball to B and allow them to run the baseline."

Of course that's my interp, but it makes sense.

Grail
By my read, 7-5-4c) should cover it and it doesn't say award the basket. Unfortunately, it is a catch-all that should be clearly worded to say that you take the same action regardless of whether or not the ball goes in, and also clearly state that the accidental whistle renders the ball immediately dead. Not my initial interp, but looks like it might be the right one.

And I also agree that two things could occur after release that might not after whistle. One is offensive BI as was already pointed out. The other is a shot block by B1, because ball could be on upward flight (a stretch, but technically true). These are not relevant considerations for a FT because neither is a likely scenario (although offensive BI could easily occur on a FT that hangs on the rim).

I would prefer that all releases be treated the same, FT and FGs, and I think the FT rule makes the most sense. But my opinion and the rules can be verrrry different.

As ChuchElias said, 6-3-3 covers it exactly.

A try in flight is NEVER dead on the whistle, only a player control foul. So, without a PC foul, an airborne try always counts if it goes in. (Rule 6-7 Exception 1 or 2, from 99-2000 book).

Then we have a dead ball after a goal...See rule 7-4-3 (again from 99-2000). Team B's ball.


The case book play that is mention is implying about a missed shot where the whistle was blown while the ball was in the air. In that case, the ball became dead when the try was unsucessful (also by 6-7)

In that case, the ball be came dead with no team in control and with no goal involoved (it was missed). So, go to the arrow.

Camron, This is exactly right. I thought about this play for a while a couple of weeks ago and even wrote in another thread on this board that I felt part c of that casebook play implied that the shot was not successful. It is the only understanding that is consistent with the other NFHS rules. I hope that they rewrite part c to explicitly state that the shot is unsuccessful because until they do we will have officials, such as BITS, who, while good-hearted and with only the best of intentions, will misinterpret the casebook play.

Would the NCAA interp. be the same? In a similar situation from last year's NCAA exam. Instead of an inadvertant whistle, a double foul is called as the try is in flight. In this case, the FG counts and you use the AP.

Is a double foul interpretation the same as an inadvertant whistle?

[Edited by Jay R on Nov 8th, 2003 at 07:00 PM]

I stand behind my above comment. The whistle, intentional or not, does not cause the ball to be dead on a shot.

After that use a little common sense. Yes a whistle blew, but penalizing a team for our mistake would not be right. The basket was good. The only penalty caused by the whistle should be that A will now have a chance to setup a defense instead of having to move into position with the ball being live. Give B the ball, let them run the baseline. No damage done and the game proceeds.

If I remember correctly there is a True/False question on the NFHS test that says "An official's whistle causes the ball to become dead."
The answer is of course False...the ball is usually already dead when the official blows the whistle.

Soooo, do we have an exception here with the inadvertant whistle?

How would we call this Sitch:
A1 passes the ball to A2 in his frontcourt, the ball bounces off of A2 and into the backcourt the Referee then blows the whistle inadvertantly. Team A has the arrow.

In the above Sitch the ball is live, just like on the FG try. Do we give the ball to Team A even though if Team A had recovered the ball it would have been a backcourt violation?

How would we call this Sitch:
A1 passes the ball to A2, A2 cannot catch the ball and the ball bounces toward the sideline. An inadvertant whistle sounds just before the ball goes OOB. Team A has the arrow.

In both cases, it would seem unfair to give the ball to Team A because they obviously would have lost possesion if the whistle hadn't sounded inadvertantly. But, by the book Case 7.5.4b "while Team A is in control and passing among teamates" RULING: Team A with a throw-in at the nearest out-of-bounds spot to where the ball was when the whistle was accidently sounded.

So what's my point? I don't really know at this point, except that maybe we can cause a live ball to become dead with our inadvertant whistle even though it seems to be an injustice to one of the teams.

Live ball on the court vs. Live ball on the shot...
Apples and Oranges? Probably, but food for thought.;)

RD

You've merely pointed out some situations that aren't "usual."

Give the ball to A and apologize to B.

RD, Remember this:
According to 6-7-5 an accidental whistle makes the ball dead, unless it falls under the exception listed below art. 9.
So while an official's whistle seldom causes the ball to become dead, an accidental whistle is one of the cases where it generally does.
Now for both of your plays, the ball is dead when the official blows the whistle. Since Team A is in control in both cases, they get the ball and the arrow is not changed.
This doesn't seem fair, but that's the way the rule says to do it. The lesson is that the official shouldn't have screwed up.

letter of the law versus spirit of the law
 

This sounds like a classic case of letter of the law versus spirit of the law. If the shot is missed, I'm going with the arrow but if it goes in, B gets it.

It's got-ta-be
 

The only reason to go to the arrow is because you don't know who will get the rebound - play stopped when the whistle was blown.

In this case there is no rebound - the shot went. Count it. Team B gets the endline. AP arrow does not change.

Nice, Nice: Cameron, NevRef, Grail, Stub

Don't be a rulebook ref... use your head. Although the best of us get confused at times... right? (don't write any names here. Good job, nice self control, Tony.):D