Inadvertant Whistle on shot - Page 2

Grail · #16 (**permalink**) Fri Nov 07, 2003, 04:03pm

By my read there is no specific wording anywhere in the rulebook telling us how to handle this specific situation. In these cases the Referee gets to rule.

Based on that, the spirit of the rule says "Count the basket, award the ball to B and allow them to run the baseline."

Of course that's my interp, but it makes sense.

Hawks Coach · #17 (**permalink**) Fri Nov 07, 2003, 04:53pm

Grail
By my read, 7-5-4c) should cover it and it doesn't say award the basket. Unfortunately, it is a catch-all that should be clearly worded to say that you take the same action regardless of whether or not the ball goes in, and also clearly state that the accidental whistle renders the ball immediately dead. Not my initial interp, but looks like it might be the right one.

And I also agree that two things could occur after release that might not after whistle. One is offensive BI as was already pointed out. The other is a shot block by B1, because ball could be on upward flight (a stretch, but technically true). These are not relevant considerations for a FT because neither is a likely scenario (although offensive BI could easily occur on a FT that hangs on the rim).

I would prefer that all releases be treated the same, FT and FGs, and I think the FT rule makes the most sense. But my opinion and the rules can be verrrry different.

Camron Rust · #18 (**permalink**) Fri Nov 07, 2003, 06:43pm

As ChuchElias said, 6-3-3 covers it exactly.

A try in flight is NEVER dead on the whistle, only a player control foul. So, without a PC foul, an airborne try always counts if it goes in. (Rule 6-7 Exception 1 or 2, from 99-2000 book).

Then we have a dead ball after a goal...See rule 7-4-3 (again from 99-2000). Team B's ball.

The case book play that is mention is implying about a missed shot where the whistle was blown while the ball was in the air. In that case, the ball became dead when the try was unsucessful (also by 6-7)

In that case, the ball be came dead with no team in control and with no goal involoved (it was missed). So, go to the arrow.

Nevadaref · #19 (**permalink**) Sat Nov 08, 2003, 04:11am

Quote:

Originally posted by Camron Rust
As ChuchElias said, 6-3-3 covers it exactly.

A try in flight is NEVER dead on the whistle, only a player control foul. So, without a PC foul, an airborne try always counts if it goes in. (Rule 6-7 Exception 1 or 2, from 99-2000 book).

Then we have a dead ball after a goal...See rule 7-4-3 (again from 99-2000). Team B's ball.

The case book play that is mention is implying about a missed shot where the whistle was blown while the ball was in the air. In that case, the ball became dead when the try was unsucessful (also by 6-7)

In that case, the ball be came dead with no team in control and with no goal involoved (it was missed). So, go to the arrow.

Camron, This is exactly right. I thought about this play for a while a couple of weeks ago and even wrote in another thread on this board that I felt part c of that casebook play implied that the shot was not successful. It is the only understanding that is consistent with the other NFHS rules. I hope that they rewrite part c to explicitly state that the shot is unsuccessful because until they do we will have officials, such as BITS, who, while good-hearted and with only the best of intentions, will misinterpret the casebook play.

Jay R · #20 (**permalink**) Sat Nov 08, 2003, 07:34am

Would the NCAA interp. be the same? In a similar situation from last year's NCAA exam. Instead of an inadvertant whistle, a double foul is called as the try is in flight. In this case, the FG counts and you use the AP.

Is a double foul interpretation the same as an inadvertant whistle?

[Edited by Jay R on Nov 8th, 2003 at 07:00 PM]

Grail · #21 (**permalink**) Sat Nov 08, 2003, 07:03pm

I stand behind my above comment. The whistle, intentional or not, does not cause the ball to be dead on a shot.

After that use a little common sense. Yes a whistle blew, but penalizing a team for our mistake would not be right. The basket was good. The only penalty caused by the whistle should be that A will now have a chance to setup a defense instead of having to move into position with the ball being live. Give B the ball, let them run the baseline. No damage done and the game proceeds.

RookieDude · #22 (**permalink**) Sun Nov 09, 2003, 07:48am

If I remember correctly there is a True/False question on the NFHS test that says "An official's whistle causes the ball to become dead."
The answer is of course False...the ball is usually already dead when the official blows the whistle.

Soooo, do we have an exception here with the inadvertant whistle?

How would we call this Sitch:
A1 passes the ball to A2 in his frontcourt, the ball bounces off of A2 and into the backcourt the Referee then blows the whistle inadvertantly. Team A has the arrow.

In the above Sitch the ball is live, just like on the FG try. Do we give the ball to Team A even though if Team A had recovered the ball it would have been a backcourt violation?

How would we call this Sitch:
A1 passes the ball to A2, A2 cannot catch the ball and the ball bounces toward the sideline. An inadvertant whistle sounds just before the ball goes OOB. Team A has the arrow.

In both cases, it would seem unfair to give the ball to Team A because they obviously would have lost possesion if the whistle hadn't sounded inadvertantly. But, by the book Case 7.5.4b "while Team A is in control and passing among teamates" RULING: Team A with a throw-in at the nearest out-of-bounds spot to where the ball was when the whistle was accidently sounded.

So what's my point? I don't really know at this point, except that maybe we can cause a live ball to become dead with our inadvertant whistle even though it seems to be an injustice to one of the teams.

Live ball on the court vs. Live ball on the shot...
Apples and Oranges? Probably, but food for thought.

RD

bob jenkins · #23 (**permalink**) Sun Nov 09, 2003, 08:55am

Quote:

Originally posted by RookieDude
If I remember correctly there is a True/False question on the NFHS test that says "An official's whistle causes the ball to become dead."
The answer is of course False...the ball is usually already dead when the official blows the whistle.

You've merely pointed out some situations that aren't "usual."

Give the ball to A and apologize to B.

Nevadaref · #24 (**permalink**) Tue Nov 11, 2003, 07:21am

Quote:

Originally posted by RookieDude
If I remember correctly there is a True/False question on the NFHS test that says "An official's whistle causes the ball to become dead."
The answer is of course False...the ball is usually already dead when the official blows the whistle.

Soooo, do we have an exception here with the inadvertant whistle?

How would we call this Sitch:
A1 passes the ball to A2 in his frontcourt, the ball bounces off of A2 and into the backcourt the Referee then blows the whistle inadvertantly. Team A has the arrow.

In the above Sitch the ball is live, just like on the FG try. Do we give the ball to Team A even though if Team A had recovered the ball it would have been a backcourt violation?

How would we call this Sitch:
A1 passes the ball to A2, A2 cannot catch the ball and the ball bounces toward the sideline. An inadvertant whistle sounds just before the ball goes OOB. Team A has the arrow.

In both cases, it would seem unfair to give the ball to Team A because they obviously would have lost possesion if the whistle hadn't sounded inadvertantly. But, by the book Case 7.5.4b "while Team A is in control and passing among teamates" RULING: Team A with a throw-in at the nearest out-of-bounds spot to where the ball was when the whistle was accidently sounded.

So what's my point? I don't really know at this point, except that maybe we can cause a live ball to become dead with our inadvertant whistle even though it seems to be an injustice to one of the teams.

Live ball on the court vs. Live ball on the shot...
Apples and Oranges? Probably, but food for thought.

RD

RD, Remember this:
According to 6-7-5 an accidental whistle makes the ball dead, unless it falls under the exception listed below art. 9.
So while an official's whistle seldom causes the ball to become dead, an accidental whistle is one of the cases where it generally does.
Now for both of your plays, the ball is dead when the official blows the whistle. Since Team A is in control in both cases, they get the ball and the arrow is not changed.
This doesn't seem fair, but that's the way the rule says to do it. The lesson is that the official shouldn't have screwed up.

Ralph Stubenthal · #25 (**permalink**) Tue Nov 11, 2003, 10:11am

This sounds like a classic case of letter of the law versus spirit of the law. If the shot is missed, I'm going with the arrow but if it goes in, B gets it.

DownTownTonyBrown · #26 (**permalink**) Tue Nov 11, 2003, 07:12pm

The only reason to go to the arrow is because you don't know who will get the rebound - play stopped when the whistle was blown.

In this case there is no rebound - the shot went. Count it. Team B gets the endline. AP arrow does not change.

Nice, Nice: Cameron, NevRef, Grail, Stub

Don't be a rulebook ref... use your head. Although the best of us get confused at times... right? (don't write any names here. Good job, nice self control, Tony.)