There has been some scuttle buttle around this area about this rule, please help me to clarify.

NFHS Basketball Rules Book Section 23 Article 2 reads: To obtain a legal guarding position a. the guard must have both feet touching the playing court. b. The front of the guard's torso must be facing the opponent.
Article 3: After the initial guarding position is obtained a. The guard is not required to have either or both feet on the playing court or continue facing the opponent.

I do take this to mean that the defensive player has to have both feet in bounds when they start guarding the offensive player. As long as they continue guarding them, if one or both feet go out of bounds they are still in a legal guarding position and a charge can be called, if necessary.

Interesting discussion at our board tonight. the interpreter stated "for the test call it a block if the foot is our of bounds- during the season call the charge if legal guarding position is established and it's torso to torso contact- even if the foot is out of bounds- it's still a charge.

So this second year official will be calling his big brother and figure what to do.

Stew in VA
CVBOA

We had a similar discussion in our first meeting. We were told to use the location of the foot to help determine legal initial guarding position. But if it's established legally, ignore the location of the foot on the block/charge.

What? Our interpreter said that the minute he sets his foot oob, he has lost his legal gurading position and must come back onto the floor and reestablish it. If he is OOB it is a block.

Exactly. Our state commissioner (who is also on the National committee) says that if a foot is OOB, it is a block every time. It doesn't matter if the kid has been standing there all night. Based on the new rule, it will always be a block unless he/she has both feet inbounds.

Both of your interpreters' are telling you the right way to call this play, by rule. Stew's interpreter in Virginia knows exactly how the new rule works, but is basically telling all his officials that he wants them to ignore the new rule and make the WRONG call.Personally, I don't know how they're gonna justify that to a coach that may happen to know how the new rule is supposed to be called- unless they lie and say something like "Oh no, Coach, the defender's foot wasn't on the line. You're seeing things". Also personally, I don't think that any interpreter should ever tell their guys to deliberately call something against the rules, just because they don't happen to like or agree with that particular rule. I don't know how Va works, but the interesting part might happen when state play-offs come, and guys from Stew's association may have to leave their area to work with officials from another association,or may have to work under a new interpreter for a regional or state tournament. How are you gonna call it then?

What I plan to do is to discuss this situation at every pre-game and go with the crew.

Stew in VA
CVBOA

Stew, this simply isn't required. The rule states that if the defender is OOB, it's a block. No need for a discussion.

CVBOA [/B][/QUOTE]Stew, this simply isn't required. The rule states that if the defender is OOB, it's a block. No need for a discussion. [/B][/QUOTE]

oh, maybe not by rule, but I am a provisional member (in my second year). Will be voted on at the end of te season for full membership. I have an interpreter who knows the rule, but tells the membership to call it wrong. So it seems to me it is more important that the crew "get it right" by being consistent. I will state my case during pre-game regarding the rule.
Stew in Va
CVBOA

I asked the WIAA (Wisconsin) to clarify, the director of basketball told me "if the foot is out of bounds, BLOCK". Sounds pretty clear cut to me.

Stew, this simply isn't required. The rule states that if the defender is OOB, it's a block. No need for a discussion. [/B][/QUOTE]

oh, maybe not by rule, but I am a provisional member (in my second year). Will be voted on at the end of te season for full membership. I have an interpreter who knows the rule, but tells the membership to call it wrong. So it seems to me it is more important that the crew "get it right" by being consistent. I will state my case during pre-game regarding the rule.
Stew in Va
CVBOA [/B][/QUOTE]

Sounds like good "people skills" to me!

Stew in VA
CVBOA [/B][/QUOTE]Stew, this simply isn't required. The rule states that if the defender is OOB, it's a block. No need for a discussion. [/B][/QUOTE]

I beg to differ. The rules states:

<b>Article 3: After the initial guarding position is obtained a. The guard is not required to have either or both feet on the playing court or continue facing the opponent. </b>

That's what's in the book. But I know at our state mtg., the state rep said what others have said if he's out of bounds call it a block.

Oops, I missed Mick's post above. It has the clarification in the link.

Thanks
David


[Edited by David B on Nov 7th, 2003 at 03:21 PM]

NFHS has clarified it on their website. I'm sure next years book will include the interpretation, but it states pretty clearly how it should be called.

Thanks for everybody's replies, but I still find it contradicting. Read the below comment made in the NFHS editorial change.

Officiating: There is no doubt that a block/charge call is a difficult call to make. Officials should know the location of the defensive player’s feet to properly call this play. If officials referee the defense, it becomes easier, but it is still quite possible that an official might not see a portion of the defender’s foot on the boundary line when contact occurs. Officials aren't expected to do anything beyond what they were doing previously. Referee the defense and call the play as they see it. It’s still a judgment call.

They are stating that it is still quite possible that an official might not see a portion of the defender's foot on the boundary line when contact occurs. And officials aren't expected to do anything beyond what they are were doing before. Those 2 statments tell me that it is ok if you have a portion of the foot on the line.

No, that is not what they are saying. They are saying that it is possible that you will not be able to focus on the feet in time to use that as part of the determining criteria for making the call. However, if you do happen to see the foot out of bounds, it IS A BLOCK!

John
If an offensive player steps on the line while dribbling and the official sees it, it is OOB, If not, we keep playing (and listen to B's fans yell!).

If a defensive player steps on the line and you see it, it is a block, not an "I have permission from NF to overlook this subtle transgression" kind of call. If you are reffing and calling what is obvious and you aren't locked in on the feet of a defender, you may not notice and therefore not call (note the absence of a wink here - I mean it as written!).

If you see it, you are supposed to call what you saw, not pretend you didn't see it.

That's the way i read it also
 

I read it that way also.

If you know w/out a doubt that his foot was OOB or on the line then call the block.

But I know I had a play in a game last night with guy driving baseline and it happens so quick that it was after the fact that i thought about where his feet were.

I know the defensive player was in bounds but I have not an idea where his foot was.

but I know in my judgement it was a charge and that was the call.

Thanks
David

Re: That's the way i read it also
 

Can you clarify this? If you don't know where his feet were, how do you know if he was inbounds or not?

I'm guessing he meant that his torso was over the court, hard to say if foot touched boundary. As a Coach, I hope you aren't staring at feet, but making the call just as described here. Happened quick, player not obviously OOB, looks like a charge, must be a charge.

What Hawks Coach said
 

Exactly!

Thanks
David

Stew, this simply isn't required. The rule states that if the defender is OOB, it's a block. No need for a discussion. [/B][/QUOTE]

I beg to differ. The rules states:

<b>Article 3: After the initial guarding position is obtained a. The guard is not required to have either or both feet on the playing court or continue facing the opponent. </b>



Just another take here: Could Article 3 mean that one foot could be in the air and one on the floor, and still retain legal guarding position, once established? Just a new wrinkle.
I still believe that legal guarding must begin with both feet in bounds.

Heard the same loud and clear message at the mandatory meeting in Birnamwood-Wittenberg. You cannot have legal guarding position if you have OOB status.

Welcome aboard Ref3 Good to have more WIAA officials represented here!

I beg to differ. The rules states:

<b>Article 3: After the initial guarding position is obtained a. The guard is not required to have either or both feet on the playing court or continue facing the opponent. </b>



Just another take here: Could Article 3 mean that one foot could be in the air and one on the floor, and still retain legal guarding position, once established? Just a new wrinkle.
I still believe that legal guarding must begin with both feet in bounds.

[/B][/QUOTE]Barb, did you read the link from the NFHS that Mick posted at the start of this thread? That's the approved interpretation of this play, and it couldn't be clearer. I'll repost it for you below.
-Legal guarding position must start with both feet in bounds.
-If the defender has a foot OOB when contact occurs, it is a block because the defender isn't in a legal guarding position.
-One foot in the air and one foot inbounds means the player is inbounds- so that player may be in a legal guarding position. That's 7(b) on the posted interp.

http://www.nfhs.org/Sports/basketbal...clarified.html

It is very clear now. The bottom line is to do it by the book.

This is what I like about this forum, very informative, with many intelligent officials to learn from. Thanks to everyone for their input.

Till the next question or comment. Thank you.

It would be nice if it were that simple, John. The problem is that the interpreters for some associations are telling their members NOT to call the rule the way that the NFHS intended that it should be called. That's the problem that Stew from Virginia is facing now, for instance. He's a fairly new official and he knows how the rule should be called-- but his interpreter is telling him to call it against the rule. Stew doesn't really have any choice but to follow what his association is telling him to do-no matter that he knows that it is wrong.

bottom line is listen to your interpreter and call it the way they want you to. Whether or not you agree. Answer according to the book on your test.

Tim, I can definitely understand where you are coming from, but isn't this totally against what we as officials do? We make sure games are played fairly and <b>by the rules</b>. I believe the right thing for all of us to do is raise the BS flag to these assignors and interpreters and let them know that they are wrong. Of course some tact must be used, but to just lay down and agree with them because they are in a position of authority is not right.<p>I guess I need to consider myself lucky that the state of Arizona is going to call this the way the rule book says to.

Barb, did you read the link from the NFHS that Mick posted at the start of this thread? That's the approved interpretation of this play, and it couldn't be clearer. I'll repost it for you below.
-Legal guarding position must start with both feet in bounds.
-If the defender has a foot OOB when contact occurs, it is a block because the defender isn't in a legal guarding position.
-One foot in the air and one foot inbounds means the player is inbounds- so that player may be in a legal guarding position. That's 7(b) on the posted interp.


Thanks JR,
It was a little late, and I just skimmed the posts.