IAABO Refresher Exam #17

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Anybody have anything to say about question #17, my citation, or the IAABO yes answer?

"No" is the correct answer, imo.

I didn't even know the rule book had this wording issue until it was brought up here. I was always taught, and other codes agree, that it's only on a throw-in violation (not on any violation) that A loses the arrow.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

"No" is the correct answer, imo. I didn't even know the rule book had this wording issue until it was brought up here. I was always taught, and other codes agree, that it's only on a throw-in violation (not on any violation) that A loses the arrow.

An addition of word "throwin" previous to the word "violation" in case play 6.4.5 SITUATION A would have been very helpful.

But it's not there right now, thus the current caseplay suggests a yes answer.

I'm not proud of myself, I should have answered yes, got one wrong, and used the caseplay to fight for my yes answer, which could have possibly led IAABO and the NFHS to a change the wording in future casebooks.

[Raymond]

Is the phrase "throw-in violation" defined in the rulebook?

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Is the phrase "throw-in violation" defined in the rulebook?

Rule 9 Violations And Penalties
Rule 9 - Section 2
Throw-In Provisions
ART. 1 The thrower shall not leave the designated throw-in spot until the ball has been released on a throw-in pass.
ART. 2 The ball shall be passed by the thrower directly into the court from out-of-bounds so it touches or is touched by another player (inbounds or out of bounds) on the court before going out of bounds untouched.
ART. 3 The thrown ball shall not be touched by a teammate of the thrower while the ball is on the out-of-bounds side of the throw-in boundary-line plane, except as in 7-5-7.
ART. 4 Once the throw-in starts, the ball shall be released on a pass directly into the court before five seconds have elapsed.
ART. 5 The thrower shall not carry the ball onto the court.
ART. 6 The thrown ball shall not touch the thrower in the court before it touches or is touched by another player.
ART. 7 The thrown ball shall not enter the basket before it touches or is touched by another player.
ART. 8 The thrown ball shall not become lodged between the backboard and ring or come to rest on the flange before it touches or is touched by another player.
ART. 9 The thrower shall not be replaced by a teammate after the ball is at the thrower’s disposal, except as in 7-5-7.
ART. 10 The opponent(s) of the thrower shall not have any part of his/her person through the inbounds side of the throw-in boundary-line plane until the ball has been released on a throw-in pass.
NOTE: The thrower may penetrate the plane provided he/she does not touch the inbounds area or a player inbounds before the ball is released on the throw-in pass. The opponent in this situation may legally touch or grasp the ball.

[Raymond]

I don't see mention of a throw-in ending in what was just posted.

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

I don't see mention of a throw-in ending in what was just posted.

4-42 Throw-In
ART. 5 The throw-in ends when:
a. The passed ball touches or is touched by another player inbounds.
b. The passed ball touches or is touched by another player out-of-bounds, except as in 7-5-7.
c. The throw-in team commits a throw-in violation.

[Raymond]

There has to be a difference between a throw-in ending and an AP throw-in ending or what causes the arrow to be switched.

The two latest citations posted don't account for the defensive team kicking the ball. It just says throw-in ends end when somebody touches the ball inbounds. Doesn't differentiate between legal and illegal touching.

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

There has to be a difference between a throw-in ending and an AP throw-in ending or what causes the arrow to be switched. The two latest citations posted don't account for the defensive team kicking the ball. It just says throw-in ends end when somebody touches the ball inbounds. Doesn't differentiate between legal and illegal touching.

Agree that the actual NFHS rule language and the NFHS case plays don't seem to match.

Exactly forty years ago (has it been that long) when the alternating possession arrow was first introduced (before that all held ball situations were actually decided by jump balls at one of three different jump ball circles on the court) the original interpretation of a defensive kick on a throwin was that while the touch was an indeed an illegal touch, it was still nevertheless a touch that ended the throwin, and the arrow would be switched.

Soon after that the NFHS changed the interpretation and I’ve been confused ever since.

[BillyMac]

Therefore, officials are encouraged to use this book in conjunction with the current edition of the NFHS Basketball Rules Book and the NFHS Basketball Case Book and NOT in place of the NFHS Rules Book and NFHS Case Book that contain the full text of the NFHS basketball rules and NFHS interpretations.

While IAABO admits that the NFHS Rulebook and the NFHS Casebook are the ultimate authority regarding high school basketball rules, here's what the IAABO Manual (their own version of the NFHS Rulebook and the NFHS Casebook) has to say regarding this issue.

[BillyMac]

Bottom line: A defensive player, or an offensive player, kicking the ball during a throw in is not a throwin violation, it’s indeed a violation, but it’s not a throwin violation, thus the confusion, especially since:

4-42-5: The throw-in ends when:
a. The passed ball touches or is touched by another player inbounds.
b. The passed ball touches or is touched by another player out-of-bounds, except as in 7-5-7.
c. The throw-in team commits a throw-in violation.

Both IAABO and the NFHS need clarify this situation (kicked ball during a throwin), especially in regard to clarifying violations in general and the subset of throwin violations.

[Raymond]

There used to be something called "floor violations". That was a long, long time ago that I last read about them.

If the rulebook no longer defines what constitutes a "throw-in violation", then we have to assume any violation by the offense committed before the throw-in ends is a throw-in violation.

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[bob jenkins]

4-46. Don't see how it helps.

Throw-in violations (which are a sub-set of floor violations) are in 9-2.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

4-46. Don't see how it helps. Throw-in violations (which are a sub-set of floor violations) are in 9-2.

Rule 4 - Section 46 - Violation
A violation is one of three types of rule infractions which are listed and the penalty outlined in
9-1 through 13. Following are the types of violations:
ART. 1 Type 1: Floor violations including basket interference by a teammate of the player attempting a field goal or free throw or goaltending a field goal and other violations, which are not connected with a free throw or try or tap for goal.
ART. 2 Type 2: Basket interference or goaltending by a player at the opponent’s basket.
ART. 3 Type 3: Free-throw violations other than those involving basket interference or goaltending.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

If the rulebook no longer defines what constitutes a "throw-in violation", then we have to assume any violation by the offense committed before the throw-in ends is a throw-in violation.

Rule 9 Violations And Penalties
Rule 9 - Section 2
Throw-In Provisions
ART. 1 The thrower shall not leave the designated throw-in spot until the ball has been released on a throw-in pass.
ART. 2 The ball shall be passed by the thrower directly into the court from out-of-bounds so it touches or is touched by another player (inbounds or out of bounds) on the court before going out of bounds untouched.
ART. 3 The thrown ball shall not be touched by a teammate of the thrower while the ball is on the out-of-bounds side of the throw-in boundary-line plane, except as in 7-5-7.
ART. 4 Once the throw-in starts, the ball shall be released on a pass directly into the court before five seconds have elapsed.
ART. 5 The thrower shall not carry the ball onto the court.
ART. 6 The thrown ball shall not touch the thrower in the court before it touches or is touched by another player.
ART. 7 The thrown ball shall not enter the basket before it touches or is touched by another player.
ART. 8 The thrown ball shall not become lodged between the backboard and ring or come to rest on the flange before it touches or is touched by another player.
ART. 9 The thrower shall not be replaced by a teammate after the ball is at the thrower’s disposal, except as in 7-5-7.
ART. 10 The opponent(s) of the thrower shall not have any part of his/her person through the inbounds side of the throw-in boundary-line plane until the ball has been released on a throw-in pass.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

If the rulebook no longer defines what constitutes a "throw-in violation", then we have to assume any violation by the offense committed before the throw-in ends is a throw-in violation.

Swinging elbows excessively without contact could be a throwin violation?