Disqualifications Five Fouls ...

BillyMac

Substitutes are waiting at the table.

Foul called.

Calling official heads to the reporting area, stops, counts, or does not count, basket (if necessary), verbally indicates color, verbally and by two handed signal indicates number, verbally and by signal indicates type of foul (block, push, etc.), and then indicates spot of throwin, or number of free throws.

Table immediately notifies to the reporting official the fifth foul on the offending player for purposes of disqualification.

I do realize there here are procedures in place to disqualify the player, notify the head coach, start the fifteen second clock with a horn, notify the player.

Are there NFHS rules or mechanics that tell the reporting official not to allow the substitutes to enter before the head coach replaces the disqualified player?

Are there NFHS rules or mechanics that tell the reporting official not to grant a request for timeout before the head coach replaces the disqualified player?

Citations please (please copy and paste, I don't have access to a NFHS mechanics manual).

Same questions, but for IAABO mechanics.

JRutledge

I would want to know if the substitute is or can come in for the disqualified player. If so then I am letting them in. If this is not the sub coming in for the the DQ'd player then I might wait until the DQ'd situation is complete or obvious not to confuse the issue.

This is not procedural but likely a "best practice." I guess you could let them in immediately, but I have found that the DQ'd situation gets confusing to the table if people are coming in without any consideration to getting the proper sub in place and in the game.

Peace

BillyMac

JRutledge wrote
"best practice" ... I have found that the DQ'd situation gets confusing to the table if people are coming in without any consideration to getting the proper sub in place and in the game.

Agree.

Anybody got a citation?

BillyMac

BillyMac wrote
Are there NFHS rules or mechanics that tell the reporting official not to grant a request for timeout before the head coach replaces the disqualified player?

Rule 5 - Section 8 Time-Out, Stopping Play
Time-out occurs and the clock, if running, must be stopped when an official:
Art.. 3 . . . Grants and signals a player’s/head coach’s oral or visual request for a time-out, such request being granted only when:
b. The ball is dead, unless replacement of a disqualified, or injured player(s), or a player directed to leave the game is pending, and a substitute(s) is available and required.

BillyMac

Found this on ChatGPT (artificial intelligence):

Under NFHS basketball rules, substitutes cannot enter the game before a disqualified player is replaced. Here’s the process:

Disqualification: When a player is disqualified (for example, due to five personal fouls), the coach is notified by the official.

15 Seconds for Replacement: The coach is given 15 seconds to replace the disqualified player. During this time, the substitute for the disqualified player must be ready to enter the game.

Substitution Process: Only after the disqualified player has been replaced can other substitutes enter the game, provided they have properly reported to the scorer's table.

In summary, no other substitutes can enter the game before the disqualified player is replaced. The disqualified player must be substituted first, after which the game may continue and other substitutions may be allowed.

I'm not foolish enough to believe everything that artificial intelligence tells me.

Anybody got a NFHS citation to confirm, or deny, this?

JRutledge

What is ChatGPT? And what significance does it have to a ruling in NF rules? Seriously do not know what that is.

Peace

BillyMac

JRutledge wrote
What is ChatGPT? And what significance does it have to a ruling in NF rules? Seriously do not know what that is.

Artificial intelligence. Kind of like a super search engine, i.e. a search engine of all search engines (the entire internet).

Ask any question (I often ask Bible questions for my Prison Ministry Bible study program) and get an answer.

Sometimes to most times it's correct.

Get used to it, it's being used almost everywhere, to write article in Sports Illustrated, articles in your local newspaper, articles on the internet, college papers, and reviews on Amazon.

It can also make "deep fake" photos (a super version of Photo Shop).

BillyMac wrote
I'm not foolish enough to believe everything that artificial intelligence tells me.

One has to be very careful in using it.

Good place to start, but always try to find attentional resources.

Nevadaref

BillyMac wrote
Found this on ChatGPT (artificial intelligence):

Under NFHS basketball rules, substitutes cannot enter the game before a disqualified player is replaced. Here’s the process:

Disqualification: When a player is disqualified (for example, due to five personal fouls), the coach is notified by the official.

15 Seconds for Replacement: The coach is given 15 seconds to replace the disqualified player. During this time, the substitute for the disqualified player must be ready to enter the game.

Substitution Process: Only after the disqualified player has been replaced can other substitutes enter the game, provided they have properly reported to the scorer's table.

In summary, no other substitutes can enter the game before the disqualified player is replaced. The disqualified player must be substituted first, after which the game may continue and other substitutions may be allowed.

I'm not foolish enough to believe everything that artificial intelligence tells me.

Anybody got a NFHS citation to confirm, or deny, this?

A couple of citations for you:

3-3-1c
NOTE: When a player is required by rule to be replaced prior to administering the free throw(s), then all other substitutes who have legally reported may also enter the game.

3.3.1 SITUATION E: B6 has properly reported to the scorer to enter the game. A1 is then fouled in the act of a three-point try. Prior to the first attempt, A1 is discovered to be bleeding: (a) B6 and A6, who is replacing bleeding A1, enter prior to the first free-throw attempt; (b) substitutes A7 and A8 report to the scorer's table after B6 and A6 enter the game; or (c) all substitutes in (a) and (b) enter the game when time-out is requested by B3. RULING: In (a), A6 must replace bleeding-player A1 before the free throw is administered, B6 may also enter because the player had legally reported to the table and another player had been directed to leave the game by the official. In (b), A7 and A8 must wait until prior to the last remaining free throw to enter the game. In (c), the time-out by B3 cannot be honored until the substitute for A1 has properly reported and entered. Once the time-out is granted, all substitutes may enter. A1 may remain in the game if Team A requests and is granted a time-out.

I also recall an NFHS play ruling stating to hold any incoming substitutes while waiting for a DQ’d player to be replaced and then bring them all in. I believe that was in the NFHS Interps and should be in the archive on this website.

BillyMac

Nevadaref wrote
I also recall an NFHS play ruling stating to hold any incoming substitutes while waiting for a DQ’d player to be replaced and then bring them all in.

I also recalled the same thing until I found an old thread with a post from Nevadaref that indicated otherwise, later (today) contradicting himself (I'm not the only one who can do neat trick).

https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/50154-substitution-question.html#post555187

So I did a little more research in my old rulebooks and found this:

2003-04 NFHS Points of Emphasis

5) Substituting Player - Disqualifications

G) When a substitute approaches the scorer’s table from the offending team the administering official (and/or the official scorer) should ask the player if he/she is intending to replace the disqualified player.

H) If a substitute from the non-offending team or a substitute for the offending team for someone other than the disqualified player reports to the scorer during the wait for the required substitute, they may enter the game. (3-3-1-D)

I) A warning horn shall now be sounded at 20 seconds (now 15 seconds) if the required substitute has not reported to the scorer’s table. This is an indication to the head coach that a substitute should report immediately (2-12-5). This warning horn does not have the same substitution restrictions as a warning horn for a time-out (3-3-1a); other substitutes from either team may still report and enter the game until the ball is about to become live. (3-3-2)

2023-24 NFHS Rules

3-3-1-D: If entry is at any time other than between quarters, and a substitute who is entitled and ready to enter reports to the scorer, the scorer must use a sounding device or game horn, if, or as soon as, the ball is dead and the clock is stopped.

3-3-1-A: A substitute who desires to enter must report to the scorer, giving his/her number.
a. Between quarters, at halftime and during a time-out, the substitute must report or be in position to report to the scorer, prior to the warning signal which is sounded 15 seconds before the end of the intermission or the

3-3-2: The substitute must remain outside the boundary until an official beckons, whereupon he/she must enter immediately. If the ball is about to become live, the beckoning signal should be withheld. The entering substitute must not replace a designated jumper or a free thrower except as in 8-2 and 8-3. If the substitute enters to replace a player who must jump or attempt a free throw, he/she must withdraw until the next opportunity to substitute.

2-12-5: Sound a warning signal to announce 15 seconds (maximum) permitted for replacing a disqualified or injured player, or for a player directed to leave the game.

I guess that artificial intelligence isn't as intelligent as many make it out to be.

Or, has there been a NFHS change regarding this since 2003-04 (or 2008-09)?

BillyMac

BillyMac wrote
... has there been a NFHS change regarding this since 2003-04 (or 2008-09)?

Nevadaref wrote
I also recall an NFHS play ruling stating to hold any incoming substitutes while waiting for a DQ’d player to be replaced and then bring them all in. I believe that was in the NFHS Interps and should be in the archive on this website.

The plot thickens ....

2002-03 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations
SITUATION 3: A1 fouls out of the game. The Team A coach talks to a substitute and within 15 seconds sends the substitute to the table to report in the game. A Team B player then requests a time-out. RULING: Since a time-out may not be granted until a disqualified player is replaced, the administering official should ask the substitute at the table if he/she is the replacement for A1. If so, the time-out may be granted. If not, the substitute shall remain at the table and the coach must still replace A1 within the specified timeframe before the time-out may be granted. (3-3-1;10-5-1d; 5-8-3b)

2020-21 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations
SITUATION 10: A1 fouls out of the game. The Team A coach talks to a substitute and within 15 seconds sends the substitute to the table to report in the game. A Team B player then requests a time-out. RULING: Since a time-out may not be granted until a disqualified player is replaced, the administering official should ask the substitute at the table if he/she is the replacement for A1. If so, the time-out may be granted. If not, the substitute shall remain at the table and the coach must still replace A1 within the specified timeframe before the time-out may be granted. (3-3-1, 5-8-3b, 10-6-2)

Could artificial intelligence really be intelligent? Do artificial sweeteners taste sweet? Is artificial turf turf?

BillyMac wrote
Found this on ChatGPT (artificial intelligence): Substitution Process: Only after the disqualified player has been replaced can other substitutes enter the game, provided they have properly reported to the scorer's table. In summary, no other substitutes can enter the game before the disqualified player is replaced. The disqualified player must be substituted first, after which the game may continue and other substitutions may be allowed.

Did JRutledge nail this?

JRutledge wrote
I would want to know if the substitute is or can come in for the disqualified player. If so then I am letting them in. If this is not the sub coming in for the the DQ'd player then I might wait until the DQ'd situation is complete or obvious not to confuse the issue.

JRutledge

BillyMac wrote
Artificial intelligence. Kind of like a super search engine, i.e. a search engine of all search engines (the entire internet).

Ask any question (I often ask Bible questions for my Prison Ministry Bible study program) and get an answer.

Sometimes to most times it's correct.

Get used to it, it's being used almost everywhere, to write article in Sports Illustrated, articles in your local newspaper, articles on the internet, college papers, and reviews on Amazon.

It can also make "deep fake" photos (a super version of Photo Shop).

One has to be very careful in using it.

Good place to start, but always try to find attentional resources.

I am aware of Artificial Intelligence, I am asking about the relevance of what we are discussing here.

Very familiar with how it works and it is relevance to the society, but talking about what we do here is not very relevant as I see it.

Also it has been referenced that when a sub is coming into the game for a DQ'd situation, all other subs may come in when they are available at the time. That is not a major change or difference than before.

Peace

Altor

I can't provide a citation for holding the pending subs at the table until the required sub has reported, but I can give a reason why this might be a good idea:

Say A6 is waiting to sub in for A1, who is their best FT shooter. B3 is required to be replaced and while you are waiting, you beckon in A6. B-HC does not make the substitution in the required time, and you must assess a TF. A-HC wants A1 to shoot the FTs, but now he can't enter until he sits a tick.

By holding the sub, you give A-HC more options on who can shoot the FTs.

BillyMac

JRutledge wrote
... it has been referenced that when a sub is coming into the game for a DQ'd situation, all other subs may come in when they are available at the time.

Altor wrote
I can't provide a citation for holding the pending subs at the table until the required sub has reported ...

We’ve got a 2003-04 NFHS Points of Emphasis that says that if a substitute (from either or both teams) for someone other than the disqualified player reports to the scorer during the wait for the required substitute, they may enter the game.

Conversely, we’ve got a 2020-21 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretation that says that the substitute shall remain at the table until the disqualified player has been replaced.

Unless someone convinces me otherwise, I’m going with the most recent interpretation, substitutes shall remain at the table until the disqualified player has been replaced.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Nevadaref wrote
A couple of citations for you:

3-3-1c
NOTE: When a player is required by rule to be replaced prior to administering the free throw(s), then all other substitutes who have legally reported may also enter the game.

3.3.1 SITUATION E: B6 has properly reported to the scorer to enter the game. A1 is then fouled in the act of a three-point try. Prior to the first attempt, A1 is discovered to be bleeding: (a) B6 and A6, who is replacing bleeding A1, enter prior to the first free-throw attempt; (b) substitutes A7 and A8 report to the scorer's table after B6 and A6 enter the game; or (c) all substitutes in (a) and (b) enter the game when time-out is requested by B3. RULING: In (a), A6 must replace bleeding-player A1 before the free throw is administered, B6 may also enter because the player had legally reported to the table and another player had been directed to leave the game by the official. In (b), A7 and A8 must wait until prior to the last remaining free throw to enter the game. In (c), the time-out by B3 cannot be honored until the substitute for A1 has properly reported and entered. Once the time-out is granted, all substitutes may enter. A1 may remain in the game if Team A requests and is granted a time-out.

I also recall an NFHS play ruling stating to hold any incoming substitutes while waiting for a DQ’d player to be replaced and then bring them all in. I believe that was in the NFHS Interps and should be in the archive on this website.

👍

MTD, Sr.

SNIPERBBB

BillyMac wrote
Found this on ChatGPT (artificial intelligence):

Under NFHS basketball rules, substitutes cannot enter the game before a disqualified player is replaced. Here’s the process:

Disqualification: When a player is disqualified (for example, due to five personal fouls), the coach is notified by the official.

15 Seconds for Replacement: The coach is given 15 seconds to replace the disqualified player. During this time, the substitute for the disqualified player must be ready to enter the game.

Substitution Process: Only after the disqualified player has been replaced can other substitutes enter the game, provided they have properly reported to the scorer's table.

In summary, no other substitutes can enter the game before the disqualified player is replaced. The disqualified player must be substituted first, after which the game may continue and other substitutions may be allowed.

I'm not foolish enough to believe everything that artificial intelligence tells me.

Anybody got a NFHS citation to confirm, or deny, this?

Dont trust ChatGPT on anything. Its about as bad as wikipedia. Especially when it comes to rules. Ive gotten the dumb thing to give me 3-4 different (wrong) answers to other rules issues before it just started looping back and forth to those different(and wrong) answers. Its core issue it only knows what its been old and what its been told is still quite limited and the timeline of what it knows isnt too recent.

BillyMac

SNIPERBBB wrote
Don't trust ChatGPT on anything.

I'm not foolish enough to believe everything that artificial intelligence tells me.

However, it did get this one (disqualified player and substitutes) correct.

In many other aspects of my life, I might start with ChatGPT or Wikipedia, but I always follow up with other sources.

JRutledge

BillyMac wrote
I'm not foolish enough to believe everything that artificial intelligence tells me.

However, it did get this one (disqualified player and substitutes) correct.

In many other aspects of my life, I might start with ChatGPT or Wikipedia, but I always follow up with other sources.

I do not understand why you would use AI as a source for something that is not coming from the actual source. Maybe I am missing something as the usefulness, but that is not something I would even be using if the information is coming from the organization that makes these decisions.

Peace

BillyMac

JRutledge wrote
I do not understand why you would use AI as a source for something that is not coming from the actual source.

AI often cites a source, and then one uses that source, and other sources to confirm.

In my case I actually requested relevant NFHS rules in my question.

Once I got an answer, I kept searching sources for confirmation.

I started with AI, found some direction, then to the Forum (using the search feature), and then to NFHS.

AI gave me a head start, and in this case, it was correct, which doesn't always happen, nor do I expect it to always happen.

Someday maybe I'll ask Alexa for something other than the weather, or to play a favorite song?

I'll see how "smart" she really is?

SNIPERBBB

Your process was backwards then. You should always start with the original source. Then you can go to secondary sources if something isn't clear.

BillyMac

SNIPERBBB wrote
Your process was backwards then. You should always start with the original source. Then you can go to secondary sources if something isn't clear.

BillyMac wrote
Are there NFHS rules or mechanics that tell the reporting official not to allow the substitutes to enter before the head coach replaces the disqualified player?

Spent two days, with no success, looking through my NFHS rule book and NFHS casebook, and then waiting for citations from Forum members, also with no success.

Got nothing. Bupkis. Zip. Nada. Zilch. Zero. Nil. Naught. Goose egg.

Tried artificial intelligence and instantly got an answer that I agreed with (so maybe I was headed in the right direction) but needed confirmation with a citation.

Knowing not to use artificial intelligence as a unilateral citations source, I doubled down on the using the Forum search feature and the Forum archived annual interpretations to come up with a confirmed citation answer.

2020-21 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations
SITUATION 10: A1 fouls out of the game. The Team A coach talks to a substitute and within 15 seconds sends the substitute to the table to report in the game. A Team B player then requests a time-out. RULING: Since a time-out may not be granted until a disqualified player is replaced, the administering official should ask the substitute at the table if he/she is the replacement for A1. If so, the time-out may be granted. If not, the substitute shall remain at the table and the coach must still replace A1 within the specified timeframe before the time-out may be granted. (3-3-1, 5-8-3b, 10-6-2)