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-   -   Connecticut Player Technical Foul Sit A Tick Policy ... (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/106085-connecticut-player-technical-foul-sit-tick-policy.html)

BillyMac Thu Oct 19, 2023 10:45am

Connecticut Player Technical Foul Sit A Tick Policy ...
 
Thought that you guys might be interested in our new Connecticut Player Technical Foul Sit A Tick Policy:

The following policy has been approved by the CIAC Boys and Girls Basketball Committees. Beginning with the 2023-24 basketball season, a player that receives a technical foul will be directed to leave the game. The administration of this CIAC policy will be modeled after NFHS rule 3-3-4, which states in part that “… a player directed to leave the game shall not re-enter before the next opportunity to substitute after the clock has started properly following the player’s replacement.” In other words, a player that receives a technical foul must leave the game and cannot return until time has run off the clock. A coach will have the normal 15 seconds to replace the player who received the technical foul. If a technical occurs at the end of a game, there is no carryover to the next game.

bob jenkins Thu Oct 19, 2023 11:06am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1051364)
Thought that you guys might be interested in our new Connecticut Player Technical Foul Sit A Tick Policy:

The following policy has been approved by the CIAC Boys and Girls Basketball Committees. Beginning with the 2023-24 basketball season, a player that receives a technical foul will be directed to leave the game. The administration of this CIAC policy will be modeled after NFHS rule 3-3-4, which states in part that “… a player directed to leave the game shall not re-enter before the next opportunity to substitute after the clock has started properly following the player’s replacement.” In other words, a player that receives a technical foul must leave the game and cannot return until time has run off the clock. A coach will have the normal 15 seconds to replace the player who received the technical foul. If a technical occurs at the end of a game, there is no carryover to the next game.

Most interesting was the incorrect grammar, especially from an educational organization and when contrasted with the correct grammar used later in the same article.

Raymond Fri Oct 20, 2023 09:17am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1051367)
Most interesting was the incorrect grammar, especially from an educational organization and when contrasted with the correct grammar used later in the same article.

My obsessive grammar pet peeve at work...LOL

Mike Goodwin Fri Oct 20, 2023 04:09pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1051364)
Thought that you guys might be interested in our new Connecticut Player Technical Foul Sit A Tick Policy:

The following policy has been approved by the CIAC Boys and Girls Basketball Committees. Beginning with the 2023-24 basketball season, a player that receives a technical foul will be directed to leave the game. The administration of this CIAC policy will be modeled after NFHS rule 3-3-4, which states in part that “… a player directed to leave the game shall not re-enter before the next opportunity to substitute after the clock has started properly following the player’s replacement.” In other words, a player that receives a technical foul must leave the game and cannot return until time has run off the clock...

Billy: did the CIAC happen to address what happens when a team only has five eligible players when a player TF is called? Will they play 4 vs. 5 until the clock properly runs?

Side note: this is similar to HS soccer, in that a player receiving a yellow card is instructed to leave the field until that team's next legal opportunity to substitute.

JRutledge Fri Oct 20, 2023 11:56pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Goodwin (Post 1051371)
Billy: did the CIAC happen to address what happens when a team only has five eligible players when a player TF is called? Will they play 4 vs. 5 until the clock properly runs?

Side note: this is similar to HS soccer, in that a player receiving a yellow card is instructed to leave the field until that team's next legal opportunity to substitute.

That is a great question. So many potholes this causes without likely being very well thought out. And I can see this being a regular issue at the lower levels where kids are not participating at the level they once did.

Maybe they should do like Indiana. Every technical foul has to be reported. Each school gets a certain amount of "points" to start the year and lose points for every technical foul or unsporting behavior that is reported. Apparently, the more you lose points you can lose hosting playoffs or even playing in the postseason. It is not as complicated as I am likely making it, but when you give a technical foul, the player or coach has to write something about how it will not happen again and in some cases, they send this to the official apologizing. It keeps things relatively in line. Not perfect, but does not have game-changing consequences beyond just getting a T that goes toward disqualification. But I give them credit for doing something that is punitive. I just feel this could even hurt the team more so if you had to go 4 on 5 and if you have no timeouts to get the sub back in, then a team is really playing with their hand behind their back.

Peace

bob jenkins Sat Oct 21, 2023 07:20am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1051375)
I just feel this could even hurt the team more so if you had to go 4 on 5 and if you have no timeouts to get the sub back in, then a team is really playing with their hand behind their back.

So -- don't get a T. The team knows how many players it has and this should just be extra incentive to behave.

(I do think the policy should apply to behavior / unsporting T's and not for reaching through the boundary plan and touching the ball during a throw-in. I'm not trying to start a debate on which of the 10 or so sections under Player T should be included.)

BillyMac Sat Oct 21, 2023 11:31am

Five Trumps Sit A Tick ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Goodwin (Post 1051371)
... did the CIAC happen to address what happens when a team only has five eligible players when a player TF is called? Will they play 4 vs. 5 until the clock properly runs?

While not addressing this issue specifically, the CIAC modeled this policy after NFHS rule 3-3-4, which states in part that “… a player directed to leave the game shall not re-enter before the next opportunity to substitute after the clock has started properly following the player’s replacement”. This leads me to believe that the CIAC would use any other relevant NFHS interpretations in regard to this rule.

Regarding the necessity of playing with five players if a team has five players eligible, it is my understanding that in cases where the fifth participant is on the bench waiting to "sit a tick" (and thus ineligible at the time) the "must have five players participating as long as it has that number available" rule overrides the "must not reenter before the next opportunity to substitute after the clock has been started properly following his replacement" rule. i.e. "must sit a tick".

Casebook Play 8.2 SITUATION B: A1 is fouled and will be shooting two free throws. After A1’s first free-throw attempt, B6 (Team B’s only remaining eligible substitute) replaces B2. A1’s second free-throw attempt is unsuccessful. During rebounding action for A1’s missed second free-throw attempt, and before the clock starts, A1 pushes B3 in the back causing B3 to roll an ankle. Team B is in the bonus. B3 is unable to immediately continue playing. Team B requests and is granted a time out in order to allow B3 to recover from the ankle injury so as to remain in the game. B3 is still not able to play after the time out has ended. RULING: B2 may return to the game and replace B3 and shoot B3’s free throw attempts despite having been replaced since he/she is the only available substitute. (3-3-4)

A former interpreter of ours simply stated it as, "Five trumps sit a tick."

BillyMac Sat Oct 21, 2023 11:39am

Up The Ladder ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1051375)
Every technical foul has to be reported.

Here in my little corner of Connecticut, every ejection is mandated to be reported to our assignment commissioner who is then mandated to report such to the CIAC.

Every unsporting technical foul is mandated to be reported to our assignment commissioner who keeps a file. If the same team keeps getting unsporting technical fouls, he contacts the athletic director and/or school principal and in egregious cases he also reports such to the CIAC.

BillyMac Sat Oct 21, 2023 11:47am

Surprise ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1051376)
I do think the policy should apply to behavior / unsporting T's and not for reaching through the boundary plan and touching the ball during a throw-in.

Yeah. This was not addressed. I should have asked a question but the policy announcement caught us all by surprise so I wasn't prepared with a question.

Long meeting. The NFHS announced that these were the most significant rule changes they've had in one year in the last twenty-five years.

And after that we had to learn the brand new Connecticut shot clock guidelines.

My head was spinning.

I will ask my interpreter.

BillyMac Sat Oct 21, 2023 12:24pm

Unsporting ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1051376)
I do think the policy should apply to behavior / unsporting T's and not for reaching through the boundary plan and touching the ball during a throw-in. I'm not trying to start a debate on which of the 10 or so sections under Player T should be included.

Some examples for debate:
Defender reaching through the boundary plan and touching the ball during a throw-in.
Substitute entering the court without reporting to scorer.
Substitute entering the court without being beckoned by official.
Grasping either basket at any time except to prevent injury.
Purposely delay returning after legally being out of bounds (throwin).
Illegally contacting the backboard by placing a hand on it to gain an advantage.
Intentionally slapping the backboard while a try or tap is in flight.
Failing to immediately pass the ball to the nearer official when a whistle sounds.
Free thrower fails to be in semicircle when official is ready to administer the free throw.
Dunking a dead ball.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1051379)
Yeah. This was not addressed. I should have asked a question but the policy announcement caught us all by surprise so I wasn't prepared with a question. I will ask my interpreter.


BillyMac Sat Oct 21, 2023 01:02pm

All Player Technicals ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1051379)
I will ask my interpreter.

Got a response.

"All player technicals".

Keeps it simple and objective, rather than subjective.

BillyMac Sat Oct 21, 2023 01:07pm

Don't Do That Again ...
 
Here in my little corner of Connecticut, some of our more sports minded coaches have already been doing this for decades.

Player mouths off to an official. Technical foul. Player is substituted for. Player has a little chat with the head coach, or an assistant coach. Player reports back in at the next whistle (or sometimes a longer "sit", or never reports back in).

JRutledge Sat Oct 21, 2023 10:31pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1051376)
So -- don't get a T. The team knows how many players it has and this should just be extra incentive to behave.

(I do think the policy should apply to behavior / unsporting T's and not for reaching through the boundary plan and touching the ball during a throw-in. I'm not trying to start a debate on which of the 10 or so sections under Player T should be included.)

I agree, but there are Ts that are not really unsporting in nature. So if you get certain Ts, it would be more punitive to make the player leave. I get it, they should know this stuff, but just seems a bit much. The T penalty is big enough and if they get a second one they are gone anyway.

Peace

BillyMac Sun Oct 22, 2023 02:34pm

Same Old, Same Old ....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1051383)
I agree, but there are Ts that are not really unsporting in nature.

Seems that an over zealous defender accidently reaching through a boundary plane and accidently touching the ball during a throwin shouldn't be treated the same as a knucklehead player who disrespectfully addresses an official (using what's deemed to be non-flagrant language).

Sure, both are technical fouls (by rule) but does the over zealous defender also deserve to "sit a tick" to "rub it in his face"?

That being said, I'm glad that the CIAC decided to make it simple and objective, rather than subjective, thus all player technicals lead to "sitting a tick".

After all, a "pissed off" player failing to immediately pass the ball to the nearest official when a whistle sounds can be considered by some to be "kind of" unsporting, even though it's not listed by the NFHS specifically as an unsporting act.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Mon Oct 30, 2023 03:38pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1051377)
While not addressing this issue specifically, the CIAC modeled this policy after NFHS rule 3-3-4, which states in part that “… a player directed to leave the game shall not re-enter before the next opportunity to substitute after the clock has started properly following the player’s replacement”. This leads me to believe that the CIAC would use any other relevant NFHS interpretations in regard to this rule.

Regarding the necessity of playing with five players if a team has five players eligible, it is my understanding that in cases where the fifth participant is on the bench waiting to "sit a tick" (and thus ineligible at the time) the "must have five players participating as long as it has that number available" rule overrides the "must not reenter before the next opportunity to substitute after the clock has been started properly following his replacement" rule. i.e. "must sit a tick".

Casebook Play 8.2 SITUATION B: A1 is fouled and will be shooting two free throws. After A1’s first free-throw attempt, B6 (Team B’s only remaining eligible substitute) replaces B2. A1’s second free-throw attempt is unsuccessful. During rebounding action for A1’s missed second free-throw attempt, and before the clock starts, A1 pushes B3 in the back causing B3 to roll an ankle. Team B is in the bonus. B3 is unable to immediately continue playing. Team B requests and is granted a time out in order to allow B3 to recover from the ankle injury so as to remain in the game. B3 is still not able to play after the time out has ended. RULING: B2 may return to the game and replace B3 and shoot B3’s free throw attempts despite having been replaced since he/she is the only available substitute. (3-3-4)

A former interpreter of ours simply stated it as, "Five trumps sit a tick."


Billy:

You forgot to cite the author of CB Play 8.2B's RULING, 😉. This Case Book Play has been in the NFHS Case Book since 2008-09.

MTD, Sr.

BillyMac Sun Dec 10, 2023 02:58pm

Connecticut Player Unsporting Technical Foul Sit A Tick Policy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1051364)
The following policy has been approved by the CIAC Boys and Girls Basketball Committees. Beginning with the 2023-24 basketball season, a player that receives a technical foul will be directed to leave the game. The administration of this CIAC policy will be modeled after NFHS rule 3-3-4, which states in part that “… a player directed to leave the game shall not re-enter before the next opportunity to substitute after the clock has started properly following the player’s replacement.” In other words, a player that receives a technical foul must leave the game and cannot return until time has run off the clock. A coach will have the normal 15 seconds to replace the player who received the technical foul. If a technical occurs at the end of a game, there is no carryover to the next game.

We got an update clarification from our local interpreter today.

Only unsporting technical fouls.

BillyMac Mon Dec 11, 2023 12:47pm

Unsporting Technical Fouls ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1051651)
We got an update clarification from our local interpreter today. Only unsporting technical fouls.

Unsporting Technical Fouls
• Includes, but is not limited to disrespectfully
addressing or contacting an official, a player
gesturing in a manner that demonstrates
resentment, use of obscene gestures,
inappropriate language or profanity, baiting
or taunting an opponent (race, gender,
religion, ethnicity)

Camron Rust Fri Dec 15, 2023 01:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1051376)
So -- don't get a T. The team knows how many players it has and this should just be extra incentive to behave.

(I do think the policy should apply to behavior / unsporting T's and not for reaching through the boundary plan and touching the ball during a throw-in. I'm not trying to start a debate on which of the 10 or so sections under Player T should be included.)

Agree on the throw-in.

I think this rule may have the effect of making officials just not call technical fouls when warranted. We do have people that brag they haven't ever called a T or haven't done so in X years. All that tells me is some officials look for anyway they can to not call one and this just gives them one more reason.

BillyMac Fri Dec 15, 2023 01:53pm

Warranted Technical Fouls ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 1051707)
I think this rule may have the effect of making officials just not call technical fouls when warranted. All that tells me is some officials look for anyway they can to not call one and this just gives them one more reason.

How about another reason?

Our assignment commissioner recently received a memo from the CIAC (Connecticut) that he shared with us.

Something about the tone of this memo makes me think that the CIAC wants us to be "real careful" about charging technical fouls and disqualifying and/or ejecting players (one game suspension) and/or coaches (two game suspension).

I really don't like something about the overall tone of this memo.

Please share this important information with your members and emphasize that an ejection should be the last resort. Preventative officiating works well. Since the player or coach will be suspended for the next game(s) in accordance with the CIAC Disqualification Rule, it is especially important to take all reasonable steps to be certain that the ejection is warranted.

It is a good practice to have a conference with your partner(s), if applicable, to discuss the ejection, before finalizing the call and to be certain of the identity of the ejected player or coach.

There are no appeals on ejections, once the officials leave the game site. Disqualification is a judgment call by an official and as such is not appealable. Until the officials leave the game site, they are in charge and may take any action deemed to be appropriate, even to the extent of reversing an earlier decision to eject a player or coach. Therefore, if the head coach and / or athletic director requests, in a courteous manner, to further discuss the ejection after the game, we suggest that officials entertain that discussion, since once the officials leave the site all decisions by the game officials are final.


BillyMac Fri Dec 15, 2023 02:54pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1051708)
Therefore, if the head coach and / or athletic director requests, in a courteous manner, to further discuss the ejection after the game, we suggest that officials entertain that discussion ...

Courteous athletic director in our locker room after the game?

Sure.

Ejected coach, or the coach of an ejected player, or any coach for that matter, winner, or loser, no matter how courteous, in our locker room after the game?

No way in hell.

No good has ever come from such a meeting.

I once had to literally break up a fist fight between a winning coach and a partner that started with, "Nice job guys", and ended quite poorly.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Sat Dec 16, 2023 11:27am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Goodwin (Post 1051371)
Billy: did the CIAC happen to address what happens when a team only has five eligible players when a player TF is called? Will they play 4 vs. 5 until the clock properly runs?

Side note: this is similar to HS soccer, in that a player receiving a yellow card is instructed to leave the field until that team's next legal opportunity to substitute.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1051377)
While not addressing this issue specifically, the CIAC modeled this policy after NFHS rule 3-3-4, which states in part that “… a player directed to leave the game shall not re-enter before the next opportunity to substitute after the clock has started properly following the player’s replacement”. This leads me to believe that the CIAC would use any other relevant NFHS interpretations in regard to this rule.

Regarding the necessity of playing with five players if a team has five players eligible, it is my understanding that in cases where the fifth participant is on the bench waiting to "sit a tick" (and thus ineligible at the time) the "must have five players participating as long as it has that number available" rule overrides the "must not reenter before the next opportunity to substitute after the clock has been started properly following his replacement" rule. i.e. "must sit a tick".

Casebook Play 8.2 SITUATION B: A1 is fouled and will be shooting two free throws. After A1’s first free-throw attempt, B6 (Team B’s only remaining eligible substitute) replaces B2. A1’s second free-throw attempt is unsuccessful. During rebounding action for A1’s missed second free-throw attempt, and before the clock starts, A1 pushes B3 in the back causing B3 to roll an ankle. Team B is in the bonus. B3 is unable to immediately continue playing. Team B requests and is granted a time out in order to allow B3 to recover from the ankle injury so as to remain in the game. B3 is still not able to play after the time out has ended. RULING: B2 may return to the game and replace B3 and shoot B3’s free throw attempts despite having been replaced since he/she is the only available substitute. (3-3-4)

A former interpreter of ours simply stated it as, "Five trumps sit a tick."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. (Post 1051422)
Billy:

You forgot to cite the author of CB Play 8.2B's RULING, 😉. This Case Book Play has been in the NFHS Case Book since 2008-09.

MTD, Sr.


For those who do not know: I have a deep dark officiating secret. I officiating boys'/girls' H.S. soccer from 1993 to 2005. Oh the shame of officiating the un-American sport, 🤣!

The reasoning behind the Rule was to give the Player's HC a chance to have his/her Player "cool down" but more often than not the Player's HC would not have his/her Player even come to the Team Bench, instead, having his/her Player remain at the Scorer/Timer Table to re-enter the game at the Team's next opportunity to substitute, which in many cases was ten seconds or less from the time the Player received his/her Yellow Card. I remember, very well, I Yellow Carded a Player who remained out of the game for less ten seconds only to come back and immediately go after his opponent again and do the exact same thing for his second Yellow Card which became and immediate Yellow/Red Card ejection, so much for a HC doing his job.


Mike:

Do you find that to be the case with some HCs not embracing the reasoning behind the Soccer Rule?

MTD, Sr.


Billy:

While my CB Play 8.2 Sit. B is an extremely rare situation, I also believe that the CIAC Player TF Rule creating such a situation such as in CB Play 8.2 Sit. B will be an every rarer situation. The real problem will be if Basketball HCs will be the same as some Soccer HCs and not embrace the reasoning behind the Rule.

Has the CIAC State Rules Interpreter or the IAABO Connecticut State Rules Interpreter officially ruled on this Situation?

How well do you know Dave Grossman, the Director of Officials for the CIAC Girls' Tournament? He and I back 30 years.

MTD, Sr.

Mike Goodwin Tue Dec 19, 2023 04:44pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. (Post 1051719)
For those who do not know: I have a deep dark officiating secret. I officiating boys'/girls' H.S. soccer from 1993 to 2005. Oh the shame of officiating the un-American sport, 🤣!

The reasoning behind the Rule was to give the Player's HC a chance to have his/her Player "cool down" but more often than not the Player's HC would not have his/her Player even come to the Team Bench, instead, having his/her Player remain at the Scorer/Timer Table to re-enter the game at the Team's next opportunity to substitute, which in many cases was ten seconds or less from the time the Player received his/her Yellow Card. I remember, very well, I Yellow Carded a Player who remained out of the game for less ten seconds only to come back and immediately go after his opponent again and do the exact same thing for his second Yellow Card which became and immediate Yellow/Red Card ejection, so much for a HC doing his job.


Mike:

Do you find that to be the case with some HCs not embracing the reasoning behind the Soccer Rule?

MTD, Sr.

Mark,

I've always noticed an appreciable interval between a player being instructed to leave the field after being cautioned and entering the substitution area, but none quite as short as your experience. I have beckoned several players back into the game at the next opportunity.

Contrast this with USSF rules. My son cautioned a U11 player for Stopping a Promising Attack. Under USSF rules, a player may remain on the pitch following a yellow card. A few minutes later, the same player committed another foul and was issued another caution for Reckless Play and was sent off for 2 yellow cards (we show cards sequentially now, rather than together as back in your day).

The coach missed the opportunity to talk with his player and that led to his eventual send off. He's also the one who parks on the grass near the sign that says, "no parking on the grass," but I digress.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Tue Dec 19, 2023 05:50pm

BillyMac: Please weigh in on my suggestion.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Goodwin (Post 1051749)
Mark,

I've always noticed an appreciable interval between a player being instructed to leave the field after being cautioned and entering the substitution area, but none quite as short as your experience. I have beckoned several players back into the game at the next opportunity.

Contrast this with USSF rules. My son cautioned a U11 player for Stopping a Promising Attack. Under USSF rules, a player may remain on the pitch following a yellow card. A few minutes later, the same player committed another foul and was issued another caution for Reckless Play and was sent off for 2 yellow cards (we show cards sequentially now, rather than together as back in your day).

The coach missed the opportunity to talk with his player and that led to his eventual send off. He's also the one who parks on the grass near the sign that says, "no parking on the grass," but I digress.


Mike:

I whole heartedly endorse the concept of having to leave the game but I think that basketball (and soccer) should model it after hockey and the Player should sit for 2:00 of Game Clock time for TFs and IPFs but the team should not be made to play short-handed. The Player should be put in Time-Out so-to-speak.

MTD, Sr.

BillyMac Wed Dec 20, 2023 11:36am

One Lump Or Two ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. (Post 1051750)
I whole heartedly endorse the concept of having to leave the game but I think that basketball (and soccer) should model it after hockey and the Player should sit for 2:00 of Game Clock time for TFs and IPFs but the team should not be made to play short-handed. The Player should be put in Time-Out so-to-speak.

Used the new Connecticut Technical Sit A Tick Policy for the first time yesterday.

This kid got an oral warning from me before I later served him some tea.

Later discovered that my partner had also orally warned him.

Coach kept the kid out longer than the next whistle.

No problem after that.

First technical on a player in a few years (not proud, just a fact).

No profanity, kid just "pissed me off".

10-4-6-A: Commit an unsporting foul. This includes, but is not limited to, acts or conduct such as: Disrespectfully addressing or contacting an official or gesturing in such a manner as to indicate resentment.


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