UGA-TAMU Blarge

bob jenkins

Legacy Zebra wrote
I’m not a basketball official, but I broadcast NCAAM and NCAAW games occasionally and I wanted opinions and info. on this play. 7:10 left in the 2nd half.

Secondary defender slides in front of the ball handler just about the time he goes up for a shot that ends up going in. The defender may or may not have established LGP. L has block, T has charge. They went to the monitor during a commercial break and ended up waving off the basket, charging each player with a personal foul, and then going to the possession arrow. The offense had the arrow, so they got the ball with a 20 second reset on the shot clock.

1. Is this the proper procedure for a double foul?

2. When does a defender have to establish LGP in NCAAM? When the shooter starts his upward motion? When he leaves the floor?

3. Is the restricted area reviewable? That was the only reason I could think of that they could go to the monitor.

4. If somebody has video, were the two fouls correct? Why or why not?

NCAAW Answers:

1) Yes, but this wouldn't be a double foul in NCAAW -- the official who has the primary responsibility would report that foul.

2) Leave the floor

3) Yes -- only whether the defender was in (well, had established initial position in) the arc, and whether the play started in the LDB. Whether LGP was obtained is not (supposed to be) reviewable

Raymond

NCAA-Men's

1. It is the proper procedure for a double foul (blarge)

2. LGP must be established prior to the offensive player going airborne (there was a brief moment in history when it was determined by upward motion)

3. Yes, the RA is reviewable (The only part that is reviewable is whether or not the defender established a guarding position inside or outside the RA. Cannot review for legal guarding position)

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Raymond

Just watched it via a medium I cannot upload to this site..

I have no clue why the Center official would ignore such a basic NCAA Men's mechanic and additionally signal so quickly.

And we have a Lead who decides not to stick a fist up in the air. Maybe if the Center official sees a fist up in the air from the end line, he stays away from the play.

An observation that I'm finding holds true: officials who go to the two fists above the head block signal are the ones who fail to do the basic fist up in the air foul signal first.

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BillyMac

Raymond wrote
... the ones who fail to do the basic fist up in the air foul signal first.

Worked with a fairly new (but not a rookie) partner last week who almost always failed to stop the clock with either a fist, or an open hand. Drove me nuts. Sometimes I started to initiate a switch (and identifying a possible free throw shooter) and then discovered it was a violation. Other times I held back on the switch and then had to make a delayed switch for a foul (and not knowing who the free throw shooter might be). Thank God we luckily avoided any conflicting preliminary signals.

While there are many things that I look for in a good partner, one is that, as the non-calling official, I want to almost immediately know "What happens next?".

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

NFHS and NCAA Men's Rules have ajudicated this play as a Double Foul originally per a Note in the Rules and later through an Casebook Play (NFHS)/Approved Ruling (NCAA Men's) for well over 60 years. While the NCAA Women's Rules have always (with apologies to the late J. Dallas Shirely) ajudicated this as either a Block or a Charge, in the manner that Bob Jenkins as stated, originally through a Note in its CCA Officials Manual and now through an Approved Ruling.

I have held (since the 1971-72 school year when I first started officiating) that the NFHS/NCAA Men's Ruling is 100% incorrect and the NCAA Women's Ruling is 100% correct and the NCAA Women's protocol for the Play is the correct to handle such a Play.

By Rule, it is impossible to have a 'blarge'. Either: (a) B1 has Obtained (NFHS/NCAA Women's)/Established (NCAA Men's) a LGP or (b) B1 has NOT Obtained (NFHS/NCAA Women's)/Established (NCAA Men's) a LGP. (a) and (b) can NOT happen simultaneously! It is 100% impossible for (a) and (b) to happen simultaneously!

If (a) occurs then A1 has committed a Charging Foul and if (b) occurs then B1 has committed a Blocking Foul.

And for the 46 years that I officiated boys'/girls' JrHS/HS basketball and for the 15 years that I officiated men's jr. college basketball I pre-gamed 'blarges' out of existence in my games.

MTD, Sr.

johnny d

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. wrote
l I pre-gamed 'blarges' out of existence in my games.

MTD, Sr.

This is false. You can talk in your pregame for hundreds of hours. It will not stop certain officials from having too fast of a whistle outside their primary while going directly to their preliminary signal. You cannot absolutely pregame anything out of existence. You were just lucky to have never had a blarge. The only other possibility is that you were able to convince all of your partners to ignore the NCAAM rules and adjudicate the play using your preferred rule set. Which means there were blarges in your game you just did not have the courage to adjudicate them correctly.

Raymond

It is totally untrue that you cannot have a block and a PCF committed at the same time by opponents.

A1 can be pushing off while B1 is putting a knee into A1's leg.

I've had two blarges in my career. The second one was in a high school game where the center official had no business blowing his whistle on my play in the Lead.

The first one was in my second year of college basketball. Dual coverage area, I'm Trail and I see A1 push off as he begins his dribble while the lead sees the defender stick his knee into the thigh of the dribbler.

We both actually posted and held initially and thought the other one was ceding the play after making eye contact.

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BillyMac

Better stated: “There but for the grace of God go I.”

Sir Arthur Conan Doyle used a version of the saying in one of his Sherlock Holmes stories and attributes it to Puritan leader Robert Baxter.

I know this because William Gillette, an actor who appeared as Sherlock Holmes in theater, radio, and silent-movies approximately 1,300 times over nearly 33 years, used to live right up the street from me.

johnny d wrote
You can talk in your pregame for hundreds of hours. It will not stop certain officials from having too fast of a whistle outside their primary while going directly to their preliminary signal.

Raymond wrote
It is totally untrue that you cannot have a block and a PCF committed at the same time by opponents ... We both actually posted and held initially and thought the other one was ceding the play after making eye contact.

crosscountry55

Legacy Zebra wrote
Secondary defender slides in front of the ball handler just about the time he goes up for a shot that ends up going in. The defender may or may not have established LGP. L has block, T has charge. They went to the monitor during a commercial break and ended up waving off the basket, charging each player with a personal foul, and then going to the possession arrow. The offense had the arrow, so they got the ball with a 20 second reset on the shot clock.

Something isn’t adding up here.

If they waived off the basket, that implies the try was not yet in flight when the double foul occurred. So then how could the POI be an AP throw-in?

Let’s assume that maybe the OP is mistaken and that this wasn’t an AP throw-in, but rather just awarded to the team in control at the POI. Why, then, would there be any shot clock reset? (maybe this is an NCAA-specific reset rule that I’m not aware of?)

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Raymond

crosscountry55 wrote
Something isn’t adding up here.

If they waived off the basket, that implies the try was not yet in flight when the double foul occurred. So then how could the POI be an AP throw-in?

Let’s assume that maybe the OP is mistaken and that this wasn’t an AP throw-in, but rather just awarded to the team in control at the POI. Why, then, would there be any shot clock reset? (maybe this is an NCAA-specific reset rule that I’m not aware of?)

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Previous nonsensical text has been removed.

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Camron Rust

Raymond wrote
If one of the two fouls is a player control foul (airborne shooter illegally contacting defender), the try cannot be scored.

If the try was in flight, they would go to the AP arrow.

AP arrows that go to the offense do not result in a reset of the shot clock. I'm thinking there's probably a gap in the rule there for such a play.

Is NCAA different than NFHS here? On a blarge in NFHS, it becomes a double foul and what was a PCF is no longer a PCF. The rule on a try not counting due to a PCF is no longer in effect since it isn't a PCF. The shot would count if it goes in. If it goes in, ball to B. If it does not, go to the arrow. (Case 4.19.8 C...from older book, numbers might have shifted now)

BillyMac

This thread brings to mind the ancient times NFHS rule that, during a charge, if the ball had already been released (thus ending ancient times player control) before the charge contact, the basket counted (if it went in) and, if in the bonus, there would be free throws down the other end for the defender who "took" the charge.

It was nice to have two happy coaches.

Quoth the raven, "Nevermore".

Raymond

Camron Rust wrote
Is NCAA different than NFHS here? On a blarge in NFHS, it becomes a double foul and what was a PCF is no longer a PCF. The rule on a try not counting due to a PCF is no longer in effect since it isn't a PCF. The shot would count if it goes in. If it goes in, ball to B. If it does not, go to the arrow. (Case 4.19.8 C...from older book, numbers might have shifted now)

You're right. I must have been taking mushrooms when I posted that.

I'm going to delete it and act like I never said it [emoji23]

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Raymond

crosscountry55 wrote
Something isn’t adding up here.

If they waived off the basket, that implies the try was not yet in flight when the double foul occurred. So then how could the POI be an AP throw-in?

Let’s assume that maybe the OP is mistaken and that this wasn’t an AP throw-in, but rather just awarded to the team in control at the POI. Why, then, would there be any shot clock reset? (maybe this is an NCAA-specific reset rule that I’m not aware of?)

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Just rewatched the play again. The ball was definitely still in the shooter's hand when the contact occurred. The shot clock was at 11 seconds but when they came back from the media timeout the shot clock was at 20. Double fouls with POI returning the ball to the offense result in no reset of the shot clock

Looks like another misapplied rule unfortunately.

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crosscountry55

Raymond wrote
Just rewatched the play again. The ball was definitely still in the shooter's hand when the contact occurred. The shot clock was at 11 seconds but when they came back from the media timeout the shot clock was at 20. Double fouls with POI returning the ball to the offense result in no reset of the shot clock

Looks like another misapplied rule unfortunately.

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Cool. Not that the rule was kicked (that sucks), but that Legacy Zebra seemed to have a hunch that the crew overthought this….which has now been validated. He’s a good broadcaster. I’ll take him over Jay Bilas any day.

Nobody wants a blarge, but when they happen, they’re really not the hardest situations to resolve. We are often our own worst enemies.

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