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  #31 (permalink)  
Old Thu Aug 04, 2022, 05:29pm
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Pogo (Walt Kelly) ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
"The officials in our last game let him play."
Hate it say it, but he's probably not lying, it was a scrimmage official.

Hear it all the time here in my little corner of Connecticut, at all levels from middle school to high school varsity.

It takes every single bit of will in my body to keep from asking for the name of the official, because I really don't want to know the name. I'm not sure what I should, or would, do with that information, so ignorance is bliss.

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“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Aug 05, 2022 at 12:11pm.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old Thu Aug 04, 2022, 08:08pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
The NFHS Basketball Rules Committee issued 2022-23 Comments on the Rules which addressed only one thing: R3-S5-A4d. It can be found at https://nfhs.org/sports-resource-con...rules-2022-23/ and says:

3-5-4d – Allowing hair-control devices and adornments such as, but not limited to, barrettes, bobby pins and beads creates inclusivity of hair styles while maintaining that the risk of injury to the athlete, teammates and opponents should not be compromised. Hair adornments must be securely fastened close to the head and not increase risk to the athletes, teammates or opponents. It remains the responsibility of the head coach to ensure players are legally equipped before the competition begins.


As one can see it really clears things up, !

MTD, Sr.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Hair adornments are now legal.

Does this mean that cloth ribbons, securely fastened close to the head, are now legal?


Billy:

I told you this Comment on the Rules would clear it up, !

MTD, Sr.
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Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Ohio Assn. of Basketball Officials
International Assn. of Approved Bkb. Officials
Ohio High School Athletic Association
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 05, 2022, 10:45am
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But Not Limited To ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
I told you this Comment on the Rules would clear it up ...
Actually, I'll take the blame here. In typical BillyMac fashion, it was my question about ribbons (does this mean that cloth ribbons, securely fastened close to the head, are now legal?) that pushed the limitations of Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.'s new rule comment citation.

Even though I disagreed with the 2019-20 NFHS interpretation regarding ribbons...

2019-20 Basketball Rules Interpretations: SITUATION 2: A1 is wearing a ribbon to control her hair. RULING: Illegal. Ribbons are considered decorations and the athlete should not be allowed to enter the contest while wearing a ribbon in the hair. (3-5-4e)

... it was very cut and dry, easy to understand, and had a logical rationale: Ribbons are illegal because they are decorations. While I disagreed with the interpretation (in addition to being a decoration (adornment) they were also a soft, cloth, hair control device), I did enforce it because it was so clear.

Now that the NFHS has made hair adornments, like beads, legal, are all properly secured close to the head adornments (decorations) legal, such as ribbons? Beads are hard and now legal, shouldn't ribbons which are soft also be legal? Their rationale for the 2019-20 ribbon interpretation is no longer valid.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Aug 05, 2022 at 02:47pm.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 05, 2022, 10:53am
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Utilitarian ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Now that the NFHS has made hair adornments, like beads, legal, are all properly secured close to the head adornments (decorations) legal, such as ribbons? Beads are hard and now legal, shouldn't ribbons which are soft also be legal? Their rationale for the 2019-20 ribbon interpretation is no longer valid.
On the other hand ...



Do the decorative qualities of this ribbon (above) outweigh the utilitarian qualities of the ribbon (hair control)?

On the other other hand (three hands?), do decorative beads have any utilitarian qualities?
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Aug 05, 2022 at 12:07pm.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 05, 2022, 12:59pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Actually, I'll take the blame here. In typical BillyMac fashion, it was my question about ribbons (does this mean that cloth ribbons, securely fastened close to the head, are now legal?) that pushed the limitations of Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.'s new rule comment citation.

Even though I disagreed with the 2019-20 NFHS interpretation regarding ribbons...

2019-20 Basketball Rules Interpretations: SITUATION 2: A1 is wearing a ribbon to control her hair. RULING: Illegal. Ribbons are considered decorations and the athlete should not be allowed to enter the contest while wearing a ribbon in the hair. (3-5-4e)

... it was very cut and dry, easy to understand, and had a logical rationale: Ribbons are illegal because they are decorations. While I disagreed with the interpretation (in addition to being a decoration (adornment) they were also a soft, cloth, hair control device), I did enforce it because it was so clear.

Now that the NFHS has made hair adornments, like beads, legal, are all properly secured close to the head adornments (decorations) legal, such as ribbons? Beads are hard and now legal, shouldn't ribbons which are soft also be legal? Their rationale for the 2019-20 ribbon interpretation is no longer valid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
On the other hand ...



Do the decorative qualities of this ribbon (above) outweigh the utilitarian qualities of the ribbon (hair control)?

On the other other hand (three hands?), do decorative beads have any utilitarian qualities?

Billy:

You did nothing wrong, the Rules are just getting more and more murkier every year.

Have a good weekend.

MTD, Sr.
__________________
Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Ohio Assn. of Basketball Officials
International Assn. of Approved Bkb. Officials
Ohio High School Athletic Association
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 05, 2022, 01:28pm
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Keep It Simple ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
... the Rules are just getting more and more murkier every year.
Just the opposite of what the NFHS should be doing regarding equipment rules. These rules need to be simplified.

Removing the phrase "school color" from the rulebook, and grouping compression shorts with other types of equipment, was a good start, but more needs to be done.

If equipment rules are easily understood by officials, coaches, players, and parents, these rules would be a lot easier to consistently enforce, and we can get back to playing basketball.

I don't want high school and middle school games to look like a "wild west" fourth grade recreation league practice in half of a local elementary school gym, or like a "clown college" graduation.

I see the value of uniformity (as well as dignity and pride) in a team's equipment, allowing officials to easily identify players on each team during fast paced action, as well as safety rules regarding such.

But we need simplified equipment rules, simplified so as to be easily understood by all stake holders in the game, simplified to be consistently enforced by all officials.

Basketball fashion (shoes with flashing lights, undershirts, headbands, prewrap headbands, wrist bands, arm sleeves, compression shorts, long shorts, Ninja style knotted headbands, tights, beads, etc.) changes all the time, always has, and always will continue to change.

The NFHS needs to react to such and adjust, but must do so in a simplified manner.

__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Aug 05, 2022 at 06:40pm.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old Thu Aug 11, 2022, 07:19am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
I guess it's based on whether, or not the beads can "swing around" and strike somebody in the eye?

Maybe I should laminate these photos and bring them with me to games?
I hate to re-open this discussion, but this is from the VB interps -- my *guess* is that BK will have something similar:

2022-23 SITUATIONS
SITUATION 1: During team warmups, the officials notice a player on Team A wearing plastic beads at the end of hair braids. The braids, pulled back in a ponytail and secured with an elastic hair tie, (a) extend down the player’s back swaying back and forth as the player moves; (b) fall above the player’s shoulders moving within the plane of the player’s shoulders. RULING: (a) illegal, (b) legal. COMMENT: Hair-control devices and other adornments in the hair that are securely fastened and do not present a risk of injury to the player, teammates or opponents are permitted. In situation (a), the official shall notify the coach of Team A and allow the player to make the equipment legal by securing the beads closer to the head and within the plane of the shoulders to minimize risk of injury from swinging beads. (4-1-6)
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old Thu Aug 11, 2022, 08:33am
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Plane Of The Shoulders ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
I guess it's based on whether, or not the beads can "swing around" and strike somebody in the eye?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
VB interps ... 2022-23 SITUATIONS SITUATION 1: During team warmups, the officials notice a player on Team A wearing plastic beads at the end of hair braids. The braids, pulled back in a ponytail and secured with an elastic hair tie, (a) extend down the player’s back swaying back and forth as the player moves; (b) fall above the player’s shoulders moving within the plane of the player’s shoulders. RULING: (a) illegal, (b) legal. COMMENT: Hair-control devices and other adornments in the hair that are securely fastened and do not present a risk of injury to the player, teammates or opponents are permitted. In situation (a), the official shall notify the coach of Team A and allow the player to make the equipment legal by securing the beads closer to the head and within the plane of the shoulders to minimize risk of injury from swinging beads. (4-1-6)
Thanks bob jenkins.

Not quite sure what the "plane of the shoulders" means.

Possibly this (horizontal plane at shoulder height):

__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Aug 11, 2022 at 08:37am.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old Sat Aug 13, 2022, 01:33pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
I hate to re-open this discussion, but this is from the VB interps -- my *guess* is that BK will have something similar:

2022-23 SITUATIONS
SITUATION 1: During team warmups, the officials notice a player on Team A wearing plastic beads at the end of hair braids. The braids, pulled back in a ponytail and secured with an elastic hair tie, (a) extend down the player’s back swaying back and forth as the player moves; (b) fall above the player’s shoulders moving within the plane of the player’s shoulders. RULING: (a) illegal, (b) legal. COMMENT: Hair-control devices and other adornments in the hair that are securely fastened and do not present a risk of injury to the player, teammates or opponents are permitted. In situation (a), the official shall notify the coach of Team A and allow the player to make the equipment legal by securing the beads closer to the head and within the plane of the shoulders to minimize risk of injury from swinging beads. (4-1-6)
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Thanks bob jenkins.

Not quite sure what the "plane of the shoulders" means.

Possibly this (horizontal plane at shoulder height):


I do not care how the beads are attached. There was nothing wrong with the rule, as written before the 2022-23 school year.

Remember: If a player was not born wearing it then there is absolutely no reason to wear it when playing!

MTD, Sr.
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Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Ohio Assn. of Basketball Officials
International Assn. of Approved Bkb. Officials
Ohio High School Athletic Association
Toledo, Ohio

Last edited by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.; Mon Aug 15, 2022 at 12:24pm. Reason: Edited my response for clarity.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old Sun Aug 14, 2022, 03:42pm
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“a risk of injury to the player, teammates, or opponents…”. Once again, nobody cares about us, the officials. My biggest reason not to allow the Bo Derek beads, is because I don’t want to get whacked in the side of the face. Unless Bo Derek is wearing them.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 15, 2022, 10:46am
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Didn't Know That There Was Going To Be Math ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bcopas View Post
“a risk of injury to the player, teammates, or opponents…”. Once again, nobody cares about us, the officials.
Bead is not properly secured and falls, unnoticed, to the floor. If someone steps on the bead, slips, and falls, guess who has a 17% (two person) or a 23% (three person) chance of slipping and falling?

__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Aug 15, 2022 at 12:36pm.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 15, 2022, 12:23pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Bead is not properly secured and falls, unnoticed, to the floor. If someone steps on the bead, slips, and falls, guess who has a 17% to 23% chance of slipping and falling?


Billy:

I love it!

MTD, Sr.
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Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Ohio Assn. of Basketball Officials
International Assn. of Approved Bkb. Officials
Ohio High School Athletic Association
Toledo, Ohio
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 15, 2022, 12:35pm
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Girls Go Crazy Over A Guy With A Slide Rule ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
I love it!
I did the math on my trusty Pickett Model N 1010-ES Trig slide rule.

I could go to three significant digits if you would like?

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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Aug 15, 2022 at 01:00pm.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 15, 2022, 02:19pm
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Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
I did the math on my trusty Pickett Model N 1010-ES Trig slide rule.

I could go to three significant digits if you would like?


My weapon of choice is the full-size Post Versalog 1460 which I think cost me about $20 in Sep. 1969 when I entered engineering school. I also have a half-size Post Versalog 1460.

When Mark, Jr., graduated from H.S. in May 2008, as a graduation present to send him off engineering school in the Fall I went on eBay and bought him mint condition full-size Post Versalog 1460 including sheath with belt attachment and handbook for $230 not including shipping and handling, LOL!

MTD, Sr.
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Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
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International Assn. of Approved Bkb. Officials
Ohio High School Athletic Association
Toledo, Ohio
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 15, 2022, 06:16pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bcopas View Post
“a risk of injury to the player, teammates, or opponents…”. Once again, nobody cares about us, the officials. My biggest reason not to allow the Bo Derek beads, is because I don’t want to get whacked in the side of the face. Unless Bo Derek is wearing them.
If you're at risk from a player's headwear, you're too close to the players.
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