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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jul 14, 2022, 10:46am
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There are no do-overs!!

To the new members of the Basketball Forum I apologize in advance for my long comment. The longer tenured members of the Forum are use to my ramblings, LOL!

Billy's play is very similar to a Throw-in Play that was discussed both ad infinitum as well as ad nauseam in the Basketball Forum almost 17.5 years ago.


The original Threads (in chronological order) are:

#1) Clock Start Error [Part I]: The original thread, which was originally posted in November and December 2003, and then somehow was deleted, and the Webmaster cannot find it.

#2) Inbound[i]n[g] play with 2.8 seconds left: A thread started by a new member to the Forums on Dec. 11/Sat., 2004. https://Forum.Officiating.com/basket...onds-left.html

#3) Timer's Mistake: This thread was started by me on Jan. 30/Fri., 2004; it was a play that I had in my H.S. freshmen game earlier that afternoon. https://Forum.Officiating.com/basket...s-mistake.html

#4) Clock Start Error--Parts II, III, and etc.: This thread was started by me (for reasons that I can no longer remember, LOL) on Apr. 22/Fri., 2005, and has since been CLOSED by whom I do not remember and for reasons I do not remember, LOL. https://Forum.Officiating.com/basket...i-iii-etc.html

#5) Clock Start Error--Part IV (Parts II, III, and etc.): This thread was started by me on Jan. 05/Sat., 2020; it was a similar play posted in the Facebook group: Basketball Officials Forum (which has one active NBA Official, past NCAA Men's Rules Editor, and the current NCAA Women's Rules Editor as contributing members. https://Forum.Officiating.com/basket...i-iii-etc.html


Thread #1 is lost to the mists of Time but Thread #2 was the Thread that was discussed both ad infinitum as well as ad nauseam and is the Thread that we should be using as our reference for the Play being discussed in this Thread.


Point of Information for the newer members of the Basketball Forum: Mary Struckhoff was the NFHS Basketball Rules Editor at the time, making her, in effect, the NFHS Basketball Rules Interpreter.


I sent the following information in an email to Mary Struckhoff on Dec. 12/Sun.(06:08pmEST), 2004 and posted in Thread #2 at Dec. 12/Sun.(06:15pmEST), 2004 in Comment #13:

PLAY: Team B scores a field goal. Team A immediately requests and is granted a team timeout. The game clock is stopped with 2.4 seconds left in the fourth quarter. After the team timeout is over the Trail official places the ball at the disposal of A1. A1 passes the ball to A2 who is also on the out-of-bounds side of the end line in Team A’s backcourt. A2 then releases a pass to A3 who catches the ball in the free throw lane of Team A's front court. The Trail official mistakenly signals the Timer to start the game clock when A2 catches the pass from A1 (instead of signaling the Timer to start the game clock when A3 catches A2's pass). The Timer mistakenly starts the game clock when the Trail official signals for the game clock to be started. Simultaneously with A3 catching A2's passes the game clock’s horn sounds. Upon hearing the game clock horn, the game officials sound their whistles, stopping play. The game officials restarted the game with Team A receiving the ball for a throw-in on the endline in its frontcourt with 2.0 seconds on the game clock.

Did the game officials restart the game correctly? The officiating crew for this game was a two-person crew.

I take the position that the game officials were correct in how they restarted the game, even though I am inclined to reset the clock to 2.4 seconds.

I base my interpretation upon rules references and casebook plays in this year’s NFHS Rules Book and Casebook

[The NFHS Rules and Casebook Situations listed below are from 2004-05 and 2021-22.]

RULES:

R2-S5-A5 [R2-S5-A5]

R2-S12-A3, A6, and A7 (This reference may or may not be germane to this play but they are listed among the Timer's duties.) [R2-S12-A3, A6, and A7]
R5-S8 (I include this entire section because it may or may not be germane to this play, but it lists the Timer's responsibilities regarding stopping the game clock.) [R5-S8]

R5-S9-A1 and A4 [R5-S9-A1 and A4]

R5-S10-A1 and A2 [R5-S10-A1 and A2]


CASEBOOK PLAYS:

5.9.3 [CB Play 5.9.3]

5.9.4 [CB Play 5.9.4]

5.10.1 Situation A [CB Play 5.10.1A]

5.10.1 Situation B, (as well as the Comment)

2004-05 CB Play 5.10.1B: A1 travels. Immediately after the official sounds his whistle and signals the clock to stop, he/he glances at the clock and notices there are three seconds remaining in the quarter. However the timer does not stop the clock and time expires. RULING: The referee will direct that three seconds be put back on the clock since he/she had definite knowledge of the amount of time involved.
COMMENT: Timing mistakes which may be corrected are limited to those which result from the timer's neglect to stop or start as specified by the rules. The rules do not permit the referee to correct situations resulting in normal reaction of the timer which result in a "lag" in stopping the clock. By interpretation,, "lag or reaction" time is limited to one second when the official's signal is heard and/or seen clearly. One second or the "reaction" time is interpreted to have elapsed from the time the signal was made until the official glanced at the clock. The additional three seconds which subsequently ran off the clock is considered a timing mistake.


CB Play 5.10.1B is not in the 2021-22 NFHS Casebook, but I included referenced it because of its COMMENT.

5.10.1 Situation D (a, b c, and d) [CB Play Situation C (a, b, c, and d)]

5.10.1 Situation E [CB Play 5.10.1D]

5.10.2 [CB Play 5.10.2]



Mary responded to my email on Dec. 16/Thu.(11:32amEST), 2004. She agreed with me that the Officials were correct in where Team A were awarded a Throw-in, but she differed with me in that since the Ball was advanced down the Court, the Game Clock should be reset anywhere from 0:02.2 to 0:02.0.


I assume now that everyone has figured out my position in the Play being discussed in this Thread: Throw-in Violation by A1. Team B is awarded a Designated Spot Throw-in at the Spot of Team A's Throw-in with the Game Clock set at 0:02.0. Billy and Jeff: I share your instinct to kill the Play as soon as the Horn sounded but Mary's response to my email confirms my position that there are no do-overs.

My position in this Thread is the same as in Threads #1 and #2, therefore I will not reprint them here in this Thread but instead recommend that everyone read my comments in Thread #2.

For those that are wondering how this would play out under NCAA Men's and Women's Rules: It is my position that the Ruling would be the same and in NFHS. I am having hip replacement surgery at the end of August so as to be able to resume umpiring H.S. Softball and Special Olympics Basketball for the 2022-23 school year after a five year forced hiatus from officiating/umpiring H.S. basketball (including S.O.), baseball, and softball. Therefore, I am not going to climb up into the attic to go through the 2004-05 NCAA Men's and Women's Rules for the equivalent Rules and Casebook Plays/Approved Rulings because I am just getting too old for that foolishness. And I have already spent too much time on this cross-reference the 2021-22 NCAA Rules and Casebook Plays/Approved Rulings.

Time to go back to watching The Open Championship. Have a great weekend everyone.!

And remember: There are no do-overs in NFHS, NCAA Men's, and NCAA Women's, but something in the deep dark recesses of my memory wants to say that there is a do-over somewhere in NCAA Women's, and I will have to check with Jon Levinson about it.

MTD, Sr.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jul 14, 2022, 11:18am
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Ad Infinitum As Well As Ad Nauseam ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
... Throw-in Play that was discussed both ad infinitum as well as ad nauseam in the Basketball Forum almost 17.5 years ago.
At the risk of making Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.'s post even longer, just a reminder to everyone that we now have a casebook play regarding ONE of issues in his post from the past.

There is only one very specific situation that I am aware of that allows officials to "guess" or "estimate" (no actual "definite" count of any type) to change the clock.

2009-10 Basketball Rules Interpretations Situation 11: Team B scores a goal to take the lead by one point. A1 immediately requests and is granted a timeout with three seconds remaining in the fourth quarter. Following the time-out, Team A is awarded the ball for a throw-in from anywhere along the end line. A1 passes the ball to A2, who is also outside the boundary; A2 passes the ball to A1 who is inbounds and running the length of the court. The timer mistakenly starts the clock when A2 touches A1’s pass while standing outside the boundary. An official notices the clock starting on A2’s touch (a), before A2 releases the throw-in pass to A1, (b), while A2’s throw-in pass is in flight to A1, or (c), as soon as A1 catches the throw-in pass. Ruling: This is an obvious timing mistake and may be corrected. In (a) and (b), the official shall blow the whistle, stop play and direct the timer to put three seconds on the game clock. Since the throw-in had not ended, play is resumed with a Team A throw-in from anywhere along the end line. In (c), the official may put the correct time on the clock, but must make some allowance for the touching by A1 – likely 10ths of a second, if displayed. The ball is put in play nearest to where it was located when the stoppage occurred to correct the timing mistake. A “do over” is not permitted in (c), since the throw-in had ended. (4-36; 5-10-1)

Of course, this caseplay doesn't offer a solution to the Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.'s issue of the erroneous "chop" (not in this caseplay) by the official and whether the timer should have started the clock, or waited for an inbounds touch.

I do agree with Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. that 5-9-4 (If play is resumed by a throw-in, the clock must be started when the ball touches, or is legally touched by, a player on the court after it is released by the thrower.) "trumps" an erroneous "chop" by an official, even if a part of the rulebook states otherwise, but that, of course, is debatable, and a matter of opinion.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Jul 14, 2022 at 01:05pm.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jul 14, 2022, 11:43am
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Older Then Dirt ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
Time to go back to watching The Open Championship.
Hey Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Didn't you play a round at the Old Course at Saint Andrews when it first opened in the early 15th century?
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“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jul 14, 2022, 12:02pm
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From My Cold Dead Hands ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
... I assume now that everyone has figured out my position in the Play being discussed in this Thread: Throw-in Violation by A1. Team B is awarded a Designated Spot Throw-in at the Spot of Team A's Throw-in with the Game Clock set at 0:02.0. Billy and Jeff: I share your instinct to kill the Play as soon as the Horn sounded but ...
If something really, really weird happens in a game, weird enough to possibly confuse players, coaches, table personnel, or officials, I reserve the right to "kill" the play at anytime to get things straightened out (keeping in mind that the official’s whistle seldom causes the ball to become dead, it is already dead).

Anybody that wants to take this right away from me will have to pry my whistle from my cold, dead hands.
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“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Jul 14, 2022 at 12:15pm.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jul 14, 2022, 12:12pm
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Paperwork ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
... I assume now that everyone has figured out my position in the Play being discussed in this Thread: Throw-in Violation by A1. Team B is awarded a Designated Spot Throw-in at the Spot of Team A's Throw-in with the Game Clock set at 0:02.0 ...
Just be prepared to send Team A head coach to a cold bus in the parking lot, or to a smelly locker room.

"But my players stopped moving on our inbound play when the horn sounded, that why he threw it out of bounds, one of my guys was supposed to move to that spot off a screen".

And, of course, there's all that paperwork for the state.

I'm usually all for doing things by the book, it's normally the "safest" thing to do in an "odd" situation, and the easiest to support (in regard to coaches, athletic directors, assigners, and interrupters) but sometimes one has to just "officiate the game", even if it means "bending" a rule for the "good of the game".

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. and I probably have common ground in that we both believe that the erroneous horn does not "automatically kill" the play. However I contend that an official's decision to "kill" the play can occur, even if a whistle is sounded late.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Jul 14, 2022 at 12:20pm.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jul 14, 2022, 12:40pm
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This is not that complicated. I do not work for IAABO anywhere and they do not determine what we do in games where I live. Sounds like someone is trying to be so smart for the room and not do what makes sense.

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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jul 14, 2022, 12:58pm
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Interruption ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
I do not work for IAABO anywhere and they do not determine what we do in games where I live.
While it was indeed an IAABO answer (that I may not agree with), the question can stand alone and be answered only using NFHS rules and interpretations, no need to get IAABO involved. Also, we never did get a correct answer from IAABO, just that the situation was handled incorrectly, beyond that we're just speculating. Maybe IAABO wants some type of additional statement that the official deemed the ball to be dead after the erroneous horn, before it went, untouched, out of bounds (throwin violation)?

I contend that an official has to ability to deem a ball to be dead (even with a late whistle) whenever something really, really weird happens in a game, weird enough to possibly confuse players, coaches, table personnel, or officials.

7.1.2 SITUATION C: A1 is dribbling in Team A’s backcourt when the ball is deflected by B1. The ball gets away and contacts a child who is walking inbounds (on the playing court). The official sounds the whistle. RULING: The ball is not out of bounds since the person contacted, the child, was inbounds. However, for safety reasons the official should stop play and resume from the point of interruption. Team A, the team last in control, will be awarded a throw-in at a spot nearest to where the ball was located when play was interrupted.

While the situation above involves a safety issue, I believe that we can extrapolate it to other odd, weird, player affecting, game affecting, confusing issues.

NFHS 2-3: The referee must make decisions on any points not specifically covered in the rules.
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“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Jul 14, 2022 at 01:09pm.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jul 14, 2022, 02:20pm
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Make Sense ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
... do what makes sense.
Just a few, but some NFHS rules don't make common sense, or don't seem to be fair, especially correctable error rules, situations involving "mistakes", especially clock mistakes, and of course "do-over" situations.

It's probably a matter of codifying "intent and purpose" into a written set of rules and interpretations, a job that's not always easy.

Not all written rules cover all situations all of the time. Sometimes we just have to officiate the game, using our common sense built up over years of officiating, and do what's best for the game.

Some, like me, would like to stick to the written rules as much as possible, but sometimes we have to deviate from the rulebook.

And then there's always the difference between a "real game" and a written test question. This may not result in the same answer for everybody.

Again, this is why basketball officials get paid the big bucks, because we know the difference between a "real game" and a written test question.

But it's not a black and white issue, it's on a spectrum. That's why (along with regional and local variations) we have our many "debates".
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jul 14, 2022, 04:46pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Just a few, but some NFHS rules don't make common sense, or don't seem to be fair, especially correctable error rules, situations involving "mistakes", especially clock mistakes, and of course "do-over" situations.
But it is in a Gestapo. The NF does not cover a lot of situations that we handle without any rules or interpretations to deal with. Why is this so hard-fast in a ruling and you cannot even find something that says what to do outside of IAABO? And it appears Mark showed old interpretations that suggested doing what you said could not be done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
It's probably a matter of codifying "intent and purpose" into a written set of rules and interpretations, a job that's not always easy.

Not all written rules cover all situations all of the time. Sometimes we just have to officiate the game, using our common sense built up over years of officiating, and do what's best for the game.
Exactly and my ultimate point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Some, like me, would like to stick to the written rules as much as possible, but sometimes we have to deviate from the rulebook.

And then there's always the difference between a "real game" and a written test question. This may not result in the same answer for everybody.

Again, this is why basketball officials get paid the big bucks, because we know the difference between a "real game" and a written test question.

But it's not a black and white issue, it's on a spectrum. That's why (along with regional and local variations) we have our many "debates".
There is no written rule that covers this specifically. So what are we sticking to? This situation is not specifically addressed but has other rules that address the issue. But it is already in the rules that you correct a timing error. It is in the rules that the you do not have to blow your whistle to kill a play at the moment.

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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jul 14, 2022, 05:25pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Just got a call from an old friend who is getting back into officiating after twenty year absence. Rather than take the local rules classes and exam in the fall, he’s taking his classes and test through IAABO University (it’s true, that’s what they call it).

He called me about this question.

Game clock shows two seconds left in the game. Official hands ball to inbounder A-1 for a throwin. A-1 releases the throwin pass. While the throwin pass is in the air, before being touched by anybody, the game horn erroneously sounds. Inbound passed ball continues, without touching a player, out of bounds. Official resets the game clock to two seconds and puts the ball at the disposal of Team A at the original throwin spot. Is the official correct?

My friend said that the official was correct. In a real heat of the game situation, using common sense, and figuring that the players were distracted by the erroneous horn, I probably would have done the same thing as the official in the question and I probably wouldn't have had to make a coach sit on the team bus in a cold parking lot, or in a smelly locker room.

But is that a "rulebook answer"?

IAABO University said that the official was incorrect, with no explanation.

So, here's my “rulebook” explanation. The game horn erroneously sounding did not cause the ball to become dead. So A-1 threw a “live” inbound pass, untouched by any player, out of bounds, a definite throwin violation. The official game knew that the clock should not have started and had definite knowledge to reset the clock back to two seconds. Due to A-1’s throwin violation, Team B gets the ball at its disposal at the spot of the original throwin.

Then get ready to send an irate coach to the cold bus, or to the smelly locker room.

What says the Forum?
The period ending horn makes the ball dead unless a try is in flight.
If the clock started incorrectly and expired with the sounding of the horn, then the ball became dead in this situation.
If the clock still shows two seconds and the horn inadvertently sounds, then the horn must be recognized by an official’s whistle to cause a dead ball.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jul 14, 2022, 06:12pm
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Automatic Dead Ball ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
The period ending horn makes the ball dead unless a try is in flight. If the clock started incorrectly and expired with the sounding of the horn, then the ball became dead in this situation.
Sounds like a good explanation.

I got caught up in the clock starting in error, and the period ending horn sounding in error, and if this still fit the definition of a ball becoming dead.

6-7-6: The ball becomes dead, or remains dead, when: Time expires for a quarter or extra period (see exception a below).

5-6-2: Each quarter or extra period ends when the signal illuminates or sounds indicating time has expired.

So an end of the period horn sounding in error still "automatically" equates to time expiring, and an automatic (with exception) dead ball? No need for an official to make a decision that the ball is dead, it's already "automatically" dead with an end of the period horn sounding, even if it sounded in error, and with time having to later be put back on the clock?

Has the time really expired, even if it expired in error?
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Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Jul 14, 2022 at 07:29pm.
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Old Fri Jul 15, 2022, 04:34pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Hey Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Didn't you play a round at the Old Course at Saint Andrews when it first opened in the early 15th century?

Don't I wish.

MTD, Sr.
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