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  #46 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 20, 2022, 07:03pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
In the DC area, 90 minute games are the average, particularly at the varsity level.
Ugh, around a 65 minute average for me. Im showered and driving home before you start the fourth quarter.
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 22, 2022, 09:45am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
Im not stopping the clock for that, if the dribbler can continue without loss of possession or some other significant disadvantage.

The game fees at the HS level simply arent enough to warrant a 90-minute or two-hour game. Get in, get finished, get out.
All you have to do is call one or two and they usually stop. Most of the time I call a handchecking foul, and the coach gets on the player for not using their hands. So it usually does not warrant a lot of calls in this area in the first place. Especially when they do it with two hands. Yes, still try to see the effect or the influence of the contact, but call it all the time and it only requires one or two calls from the crew and they get the message.

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  #48 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 22, 2022, 10:08am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
Referees will complain about how sloppy a game was oblivious to the fact they allowed so much physicality on the ball handlers, leading to turnovers. Or wonder why a player dribbled into a trap, ignoring that the defender literally pushed the dribbler in that direction.

The lower the athleticism and/or skill, the more we need whistles on those plays.

All we have to do is call fouls. If the contact (illegal) cause the player to fall, lose the ball, make a bad pass, go out of bounds or make a shot harder, blow the damn whistle.

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  #49 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 23, 2022, 09:43am
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Old-Time Religion (1873) ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
If the contact (illegal) cause the player to fall, lose the ball, make a bad pass, go out of bounds or make a shot harder, blow the damn whistle.
This sounds like the long held NFHS philosophy based on advantage and disadvantage. It still exists. Of course, it has to be called. Nobody can argue that.

A player or a team should not be permitted an advantage which is not intended by a rule. Neither should play be permitted to develop which may lead to placing a player at a disadvantage not intended by a rule.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
All you have to do is call one or two and they usually stop. Most of the time I call a handchecking foul, and the coach gets on the player for not using their hands. Especially when they do it with two hands.
This sounds like the new NFHS philosophy, now actually written into the rulebook.

10-7-12: The following acts constitute a foul when committed against a ball handler/dribbler. A player becomes a ball handler when he/she receives the ball. This would include a player in a post position.
a. Placing two hands on the player.
b. Placing an extended arm bar on the player.
c. Placing and keeping a hand on the player.
d. Contacting the player more than once with the same hand or alternating hands.


This is where, sometimes, different officials have different philosophies.

As JRutledge noted, when called early in a game, players and coaches adjust, making for smoother game.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Jun 30, 2022 at 09:43am.
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 23, 2022, 04:33pm
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Timing ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
As JRutledge noted, when called early in a game, players and coaches adjust, making for smoother game.
If one is going to call a hand check "touch" foul, do it early in the game. Don't call your first "touch" foul with a minute to go in the fourth period of a tied game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
If the contact (illegal) cause the player to fall, lose the ball, make a bad pass, go out of bounds or make a shot harder, blow the damn whistle.
Call these advantage/disadvantage fouls at any time, even if you call your first one with a minute to go in the fourth period of a tied game.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Jun 30, 2022 at 09:43am.
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jun 24, 2022, 10:35am
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Billy,

Funny, I did not say a damn thing about handchecking as an advantage/disadvantage foul. And 4-27 did not magically go away in the rulebook in the last 10 years either. There is still a standard that all contact is not a foul and when that contact does not directly influence the normal movement of players, it is not illegal or should not be ruled a foul.

The handchecking rules are particular and still have a judgment element to them. Because there are people that think anytime a hand touches a dribbler that is a foul. That is not how the rule is written.

A lot of the contact that Raymond was mentioning was not handchecking fouls. Players are trapped and we allow defenders to crowd or bump into ball handlers with their torso or hit them with their arms which are not handchecking fouls. The NCAA put in a cylinder foul to allow the ball handler some space to move normally. So at least they have that part figured out where we think as NF officials that that kind of contact is OK, just because there is no rule in place.

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Last edited by JRutledge; Fri Jun 24, 2022 at 11:06am.
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jun 24, 2022, 01:04pm
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Advantage/Disadvantage ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
If the contact (illegal) cause the player to fall, lose the ball, make a bad pass, go out of bounds or make a shot harder, blow the damn whistle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
I did not say a damn thing about handchecking as an advantage/disadvantage foul.
The situations you described in an earlier post certainly describe advantage/disadvantage situations (player falls, player loses ball, player makes a bad pass, player goes out of bounds, player had difficulty shooting). Some could have been caused by handchecking. Some may have been caused by other types of fouls (push, block, etc.).

Many posts previous to your post were specifically aimed at ball handlers, possibly with handchecking, thus I thought you were commenting on those posts, not slightly changing the topic to all illegal contact fouls. I thought ... "poorly".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
… refs will still be making excuses for why they allow ballhandlers to get manhandled all over the court ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
… if the dribbler can continue without loss of possession or some other significant disadvantage…
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
… so much physicality on the ball handlers, leading to turnovers. Or wonder why a player dribbled into a trap, ignoring that the defender literally pushed the dribbler in that direction.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
… consistent and rigorous on calling freedom of movement fouls. I call two hands and stayed hands frequently …
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
All you have to do is call one or two and they usually stop. Most of the time I call a handchecking foul …
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Jun 24, 2022 at 06:46pm.
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jun 24, 2022, 01:19pm
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Judgment ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
The handchecking rules are particular and still have a judgment element to them. Because there are people that think anytime a hand touches a dribbler that is a foul. That is not how the rule is written.
Judgment does have a role, but multiple points of emphases and a recent rule language change, have taken away some of that judgment.

A single, momentary "hot stove" touch with one hand? Legal. Single, momentary, touch, and one hand.

Everything else? See 10-7-12 and adjudicate based on what your state, local area, and assigner, want.

10-7-12: The following acts constitute a foul when committed against a ball handler/dribbler. A player becomes a ball handler when he/she receives the ball. This would include a player in a post position.
a. Placing two hands on the player.
b. Placing an extended arm bar on the player.
c. Placing and keeping a hand on the player.
d. Contacting the player more than once with the same hand or alternating hands.


My local interpreter and assigner want these "touch" fouls called.

As usual, when in Rome ...
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Jun 24, 2022 at 01:41pm.
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jun 24, 2022, 01:36pm
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Big Bucks ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
... 4-27 did not magically go away in the rulebook in the last 10 years either. There is still a standard that all contact is not a foul and when that contact does not directly influence the normal movement of players, it is not illegal or should not be ruled a foul.
Agree that incidental contact is still in the rulebook.

Good officials have to adjudicate based on both 4-27 and 10-7-12.

That's why basketball officials get paid the big bucks.

As usual, when in Rome ...
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  #55 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jun 24, 2022, 01:52pm
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First Shot Across The Bow ...

Up until recently, most of our guys only called "touch" handcheck fouls (when there was no obvious advantage gained) when the handchecks were multiple, persistent, and very obvious, often first giving a warning, "Hands off".

Now (since 2014-15), with the exemption of a single, momentary "hot stove" touch with one hand, our interpreter, and our assigner want these (two hands, extended arm bar, placing and keeping a hand, contacting more than once with the same hand or alternating hands) called (when there was no obvious advantage gained), and we seldom issue warnings, usually the first shot across the bow is a foul called.

That being said, some our local guys, especially some grizzled veterans, still have differing philosophies.

As usual, when in Rome ...
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Jun 24, 2022 at 05:48pm.
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  #56 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jun 24, 2022, 02:19pm
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History ...

2008-09 NFHS Points Of Emphasis
Hand-checking. Defenders are not permitted to have hands on the dribbler or offensive players away from the ball. Hand-checking is not incidental contact; it gives a tremendous advantage to the person using illegal hands/tactics. Regardless of where it happens on the floor, when a player:
1) Continuously places a hand on the opposing player – it is a foul.
2) Places both hands on a player – it is a foul.
3) Continuously jabs a hand or forearm on an opponent – it is a foul.

2010-11 NFHS Points Of Emphasis
Hand checking is a foul and is not incidental contact.
Defensive players shall not have hand(s) on the offensive player.
When a player has a hand on, two hands on or jabs a hand or forearm on an opponent, it is a foul.


2014-15 NFHS Basketball Rules Changes
New 10-6-12: The following acts constitute a foul when committed against a ball handler/dribbler:
a. Placing two hands on the player.
b. Placing an extended arm bar on the player.
c. Placing and keeping a hand on the player.
d. Contacting the player more than once with the same hand or alternating hands.
Rationale: Rather than continuing to make hand-checking a point of emphasis year after year, simply add a brand new rule that requires a personal foul be called ANY TIME this type of contact occurs on a player holding or dribbling the ball outside of the lane area. The NFHS game needs this type of illegal contact on the perimeter ball handlers and dribblers eliminated.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Jun 24, 2022 at 06:49pm.
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  #57 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jun 24, 2022, 03:51pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
The situations you described in an earlier post certainly describe advantage/disadvantage situations (player falls, player loses ball, player makes a bad pass, player goes out of bounds, player had difficulty shooting). Some could have been caused by handchecking. Some may have been caused by other types of fouls (push, block, etc.).
Yeah Billy, sometimes these things happen because they are playing defense and might have nothing to do with their hands. I was not exclusively referencing handchecking. Players bump into each other all the time and often do not use their hands. So if that bump causes the ball handler or non-ball handler to fall, lose their balance or even in some cases go out of bounds, the amount of contact is not relevant, it is the cause of the illegal contact.

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  #58 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jun 24, 2022, 05:45pm
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Body Bumping ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Players bump into each other all the time and often do not use their hands. So if that bump causes the ball handler or non-ball handler to fall, lose their balance or even in some cases go out of bounds, the amount of contact is not relevant, it is the cause of the illegal contact.
Agree.

NFHS Basketball Points of Emphasis - 2017-18

Guarding. The addition of rule 10.7.12, has been successful in its intent to clean up illegal contact on the ballhandler/dribbler and post players. Players are attempting to replace this illegal contact with contact observed as “body bumping”. Illegal contact with the body must be ruled a foul however, officials must accurately identify if the defense or offense causes the contact and penalize the player causing the illegal contact.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Jun 24, 2022 at 05:49pm.
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  #59 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 27, 2022, 04:01pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
2008-09 NFHS Points Of Emphasis
Hand-checking. Defenders are not permitted to have hands on the dribbler or offensive players away from the ball. Hand-checking is not incidental contact; it gives a tremendous advantage to the person using illegal hands/tactics. Regardless of where it happens on the floor, when a player:
1) Continuously places a hand on the opposing player it is a foul.
2) Places both hands on a player it is a foul.
3) Continuously jabs a hand or forearm on an opponent it is a foul.

2010-11 NFHS Points Of Emphasis
Hand checking is a foul and is not incidental contact.
Defensive players shall not have hand(s) on the offensive player.
When a player has a hand on, two hands on or jabs a hand or forearm on an opponent, it is a foul.


2014-15 NFHS Basketball Rules Changes
New 10-6-12: The following acts constitute a foul when committed against a ball handler/dribbler:
a. Placing two hands on the player.
b. Placing an extended arm bar on the player.
c. Placing and keeping a hand on the player.
d. Contacting the player more than once with the same hand or alternating hands.
Rationale: Rather than continuing to make hand-checking a point of emphasis year after year, simply add a brand new rule that requires a personal foul be called ANY TIME this type of contact occurs on a player holding or dribbling the ball outside of the lane area. The NFHS game needs this type of illegal contact on the perimeter ball handlers and dribblers eliminated.

As the bald old geezer (H.S., Class of 1969) and still "old school".

From the 2010-11 NFHS Points of Emphasis: "Hand checking is a foul and is not incidental contact." That is how it was called when I playing JrHS (1963-64 and 1964-65; and is in my 1963-64 NBC Rules Book. One did not Hand Check in practice unless one wanted to run laps; Hand Checking was considered "lazy defense". Ironically, NAGWS Basketball Rules, the Rules Set for AIAW Basketball before the NCAA took over women's college basketball in 1983-84, specifically allowed Hand Checking, by Rule, because NAGWS Basketball Rules were a mashup of NBC and FIBA Rules, and FIBA allowed Hand Checking.

Time for my pre-dinner nap. I hope that everyone is having a great Summer.

MTD, Sr.
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  #60 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 28, 2022, 10:25am
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Curious. No modern rule set allows hand checking.

Back to the topic of hand checking, some boards in my area are stricter than others, but I have noticed that it is consistently called. Two hands? We call it. Repeated hot stove touches? I call it. Re-route? If I see it, I call it.
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