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  #31 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 15, 2022, 05:02pm
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Actual Rule verbiage and Casebook/Rules Interpretations.

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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Not much to write home about. I guess we have to see what those adornment and hair rules involve.

Peace
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Bobby pins? Barrettes? Beads?

Beads attached to the ends of very long braids? How close to the head?

Hair adornments made of soft material? Ribbons?

Color restrictions?
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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
I would rather wait until this is specified because it is possible those are not what they are talking about. Also, many players that are African-American or of African decent wear things in their hair that is part of their hairstyle that is not these things. So I am wondering if this is kind of what they are addressing, but that is an assumption. Just a trend with some laws that used to kind of outlaw certain hairstyles and now that is becoming a norm.

Peace

I agree with Jeff and Bill. We will have to wait until the actual NFHS Rules and Casebook/Rules Interpretations are published in October 2022. Then I will get on my soap box, LOL!

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  #32 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 15, 2022, 05:04pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Wonder if the NFHS will broach and clarify the difference between the actual ten second rule (start count at possession) and the shot clock guidelines posted last year (use shot clock to count ten seconds, starting count at touch)?
My gut tells me that any and all guidance from the NFHS will have NCAA Men's/Women's written all over it. Jeff and Bob (Jenkins), what do you think?

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  #33 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 16, 2022, 12:42am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
My gut tells me that any and all guidance from the NFHS will have NCAA Men's/Women's written all over it. Jeff and Bob (Jenkins), what do you think?

MTD, Sr.
Didn't the NF specifically put something out to suggest that the shot clock would be used as the 10-second count? If that is the case then I would expect the touch to be the start similar to what the NCAA does.

Shot Clock Guidelines from NF

Listed in this document.

Quote:
5. Start the shot clock when:

A player inbounds legally touches or is touched by the ball on a throw-in; or
A team initially gains control after a jump ball or unsuccessful try for goal; or
Control of a loose ball is gained after a jump ball; or Unsuccessful try for goal.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 16, 2022, 08:52am
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Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
2022-23 Basketball Rules Changes
...
2022-23 Basketball Points of Emphasis

2. Reducing Illegal Contact – Hand Checks, Post Play, Off-Ball Play

When my organs are getting donated to scientific studies, HS refs will still be making excuses for why they allow ballhandlers to get manhandled all over the court..."it's soft", "they have to play through it", etc.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 16, 2022, 10:08am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Didn't the NF specifically put something out to suggest that the shot clock would be used as the 10-second count? If that is the case then I would expect the touch to be the start similar to what the NCAA does.
NFHS shot clock ten second rule says "touch" while NFHS stand-alone ten second rule remains unchanged and still says "possession".

One, or the other, has to be changed.

Or, perhaps the NFHS will leave it up to shot clock states to decide?
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jun 16, 2022, 12:24pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
NFHS shot clock ten second rule says "touch" while NFHS stand-alone ten second rule remains unchanged and still says "possession".

One, or the other, has to be changed.

Or, perhaps the NFHS will leave it up to shot clock states to decide?
I think it only makes sense for the shot clock. Otherwise leave it alone. If you are not using the shot clock then there is no reason to muddy the water with when a 10-second count starts. But neither state has adopted such rule so it is not relevant to me at this point.

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  #37 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jun 17, 2022, 10:19am
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One Universal Scholastic Ten Second Rule ...

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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
If you are not using the shot clock then there is no reason to muddy the water with when a 10-second count starts.
I, for one, believe that it muddies the water to have two different ten second rules, one for scholastic games with a shot clock, and one for scholastic games with no shot clock, especially for those states that may not have shot clocks across all scholastic levels (high school varsity, junior varsity, freshman, and middle school).

The NFHS should simply change the ten second language to "touch" to align with the existing shot clock language, or change the shot clock language to "possession" to align with the existing ten second language.

I don't care which they choose, just do it to have one universal scholastic ten second rule. Doesn't have to be the same as NCAA, NBA, FIBA, etc. It ain't rocket science.

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Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Jun 17, 2022 at 12:56pm.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jun 17, 2022, 01:14pm
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Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
I, for one, believe that it muddies the water to have two different ten second rules, one for scholastic games with a shot clock, and one for scholastic games with no shot clock, especially for those states that may not have shot clocks across all scholastic levels (high school varsity, junior varsity, freshman, and middle school).

The NFHS should simply change the ten second language to "touch" to align with the existing shot clock language, or change the shot clock language to "possession" to align with the existing ten second language.

I don't care which they choose, just do it to have one universal scholastic ten second rule. Doesn't have to be the same as NCAA, NBA, FIBA, etc. It ain't rocket science.
Almost all my high school games are played with teams and schools in the very same state of each other. So not sure it matters what another state might do if they use a shot clock and the other does not use a shot clock. The shot clock in itself is a complete change, so who cares what the 10 second count is if you are not using the same basic rule. At this point neither of my states are using the shot clock, though that might change. But the shot clock has a clock on the basket or near the court, so there is no reason to be a prisoner of a visible count.

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  #39 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jun 17, 2022, 01:43pm
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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
... so there is no reason to be a prisoner of a visible count.
Using the shot clock for a ten second count would certainly take care of the issue of "slow counters" and "fast counters", especially in situations with a backcourt inbounds after stopped clock (made free throw, or timeout) where coaches and fans can easily cite evidence to support their case to criticize.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Jun 17, 2022 at 02:15pm.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jun 18, 2022, 10:36pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Using the shot clock for a ten second count would certainly take care of the issue of "slow counters" and "fast counters", especially in situations with a backcourt inbounds after stopped clock (made free throw, or timeout) where coaches and fans can easily cite evidence to support their case to criticize.
That, is why I try to sync my visible count to the game clock, when I am required to show a visible count. If I start my count at 1:21, and the ball is still in the backcourt at 1:10, with no intervening stoppage, there definitely is a violation.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jun 19, 2022, 08:55am
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Accurate Count ...

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Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
That, is why I try to sync my visible count to the game clock, when I am required to show a visible count. If I start my count at 1:21, and the ball is still in the backcourt at 1:10, with no intervening stoppage, there definitely is a violation.
While I don't frequently do this, I will do this several times over a season to see if my count is accurate. Always a few times in preseason scrimmages.

If you're in a state where you are not supposed to use the shot clock for a ten second count (must show "visible" count), or in a state where there is no shot clock, just be sure you've "visibly" counted ten times before sounding a whistle at 1:10 (or whatever time). While a coach certainly can't argue about your timing accuracy, he could argue about the number of "visible" counts, "I only saw eight visible counts, so I didn't request a timeout". While I've never hear this argument in regard to a ten second rule (it's a weak argument), I have heard it in regard to a five second closely guarded rule. And in the twenty-first century, all coaches have videos of "visible" counts to back them up.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Jun 19, 2022 at 01:23pm.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jun 19, 2022, 08:07pm
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Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
When my organs are getting donated to scientific studies, HS refs will still be making excuses for why they allow ballhandlers to get manhandled all over the court..."it's soft", "they have to play through it", etc.
Im not stopping the clock for that, if the dribbler can continue without loss of possession or some other significant disadvantage.

The game fees at the HS level simply arent enough to warrant a 90-minute or two-hour game. Get in, get finished, get out.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jun 19, 2022, 08:51pm
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Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
Im not stopping the clock for that, if the dribbler can continue without loss of possession or some other significant disadvantage.

...
Referees will complain about how sloppy a game was oblivious to the fact they allowed so much physicality on the ball handlers, leading to turnovers. Or wonder why a player dribbled into a trap, ignoring that the defender literally pushed the dribbler in that direction.

The lower the athleticism and/or skill, the more we need whistles on those plays.


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Last edited by Raymond; Sun Jun 19, 2022 at 08:54pm.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 20, 2022, 12:02am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
Referees will complain about how sloppy a game was oblivious to the fact they allowed so much physicality on the ball handlers, leading to turnovers. Or wonder why a player dribbled into a trap, ignoring that the defender literally pushed the dribbler in that direction.

The lower the athleticism and/or skill, the more we need whistles on those plays.


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Yep. The game goes so much smoother and is more entertaining once you stop letting defenders get away with so much that should be a foul. Fouls eventually come back down, scoring goes up, and the ball moves more quickly.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 20, 2022, 08:53am
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Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
Yep. The game goes so much smoother and is more entertaining once you stop letting defenders get away with so much that should be a foul. Fouls eventually come back down, scoring goes up, and the ball moves more quickly.
I agree. That is why I try to be consistent and rigorous on calling freedom of movement fouls. I call two hands and stayed hands frequently.

In the DC area, 90 minute games are the average, particularly at the varsity level.
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