Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1047535)

Found it at the 8-minute mark.

Since one of the two technical fouls was for dead ball contact, all free throws are shot. Anytime there is a dead ball contact technical, the offended team gets a throw-in.

The throw-in should have been in the back court at the spot of the infraction. NCAA Men's no longer does division line throw-ins for dead ball contact technical fouls

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1047535)

Found it at the 8-minute mark.

Since one of the two technical fouls was for dead ball contact, all free throws are shot. Anytime there is a dead ball contact technical, the offended team gets a throw-in.

The throw-in should have been in the back court at the spot of the infraction. NCAA Men's no longer does division line throw-ins for dead ball contact technical fouls

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Originally Posted by Coach Bill (Post 1047538)

Who's ball should it have been?

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1047539)

When there is a dead ball contact technical, the team that got offended. The Coppin State player pushed the Norfolk State player, so NSU got the ball.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Originally Posted by Coach Bill (Post 1047540)

I disagree on that, based on this paragraph in the section you mentioned:

RESUMPTION OF PLAY—For any technical foul(s), play shall resume at the
point of interruption using the procedures in Rule 7-3.2, including for a
single flagrant 2 technical foul or a single contact dead ball technical foul
(Art. 1.e through .k).

Originally Posted by Coach Bill (Post 1047542)

Also, disagree on shooting free throws, based on this:



h. When a double technical foul or any simultaneous foul occurs during

a stopped-clock period, all fouls shall be charged but no free throws

shall be awarded if the penalties are equal. Only the number of free

throws awarded shall be used to determine if the penalties are equal. If

the penalties are not equal, all free throws shall be administered. The

game shall resume at the point of interruption using the procedures

in Rule 7-3.2 unless one team has been awarded possession of the ball

as part of a penalty.





I've watched scores of college games this year. Saw several instances where one player is talking (taunting), the other player pushes him away. Never seen it not called double technical and go to POI.

Originally Posted by Multiple Sports (Post 1047541)

Raymond give me a couple days...I'll get you an answer as to ball was put in at division line. Where you at the game??

Originally Posted by Coach Bill (Post 1047540)

I disagree on that, based on this paragraph in the section you mentioned:



RESUMPTION OF PLAY—For any technical foul(s), play shall resume at the

point of interruption using the procedures in Rule 7-3.2, including for a

single flagrant 2 technical foul or a single contact dead ball technical foul

(Art. 1.e through .k).

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1047547)

I went back and looked at this on ESPN Plus.

They gave the ball back to the Norfolk State at the division line and called a dead ball technical foul on Coppin State player for the push.

Now the broadcasters said it was a double technical, but you can see and hear the official report the information to the TV people and said it was a dead ball technical and that they were giving the ball to Norfolk State.

So that tells me that this was not a double technical, but two separate acts, which is why you shoot all the free throws. That being said, the ball should have gone to the end line, not the division line.

It took a long time to get to this conclusion as well. Seemed like there was either disagreement or not understanding of what was called. Because one of the officials was going to put the ball in play at the division line before they shot free thows. So they seemed to get to the right conclusion on the free throw, but not the placement of the ball on the throw-in. Both coaches were confused, mostly the Norfolk State coach.

Peace

Originally Posted by Coach Bill (Post 1047551)

So, you think they adjudicated it as a false double foul?

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1047558)

No. Both were dead ball acts. But a double foul is seen at approximately the same time. If there is a delay or enough of one, they could be two separate acts. That is the only way you shoot the free throws. Also when they put it at the division line, that is kind of a tell it was not a double foul when the acts took place on the end line. Maybe they just screwed it up, but they would have had to make that mistake on several fronts, not just one way.

Peace

Originally Posted by Coach Bill (Post 1047559)

I said it looks like it was called a "false" double foul, I.e., two separate acts. So, I think we're in agreement with how they administered it. Except, I can't figure out why the ball was inbounded at the division line. And, since neither was flagrant, I can't figure out why they didn't go to POI.

Originally Posted by Coach Bill (Post 1047559)

I said it looks like it was called a "false" double foul, I.e., two separate acts. So, I think we're in agreement with how they administered it. Except, I can't figure out why the ball was inbounded at the division line. And, since neither was flagrant, I can't figure out why they didn't go to POI.

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1047561)

A false double foul is when one of the fouls is live and the next foul is dead.

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1047564)

While that may be true for college rules, for those high school officials trying to compare/contrast as they follow this thread, JRutledge's definition is not true for a high school false double fouls, where live ball/dead ball may not impact the definition.

A high school false double foul may involve a live ball foul followed by a dead ball foul, or it may involve two dead ball fouls. For example, technical foul on Red player, lets say for taunting, while White is shooting the technical foul free throws (clock hasn't started), there is a technical foul charged to White player for profanity. False double (high school) foul, shot in the order that they occurred. Following all free throws, ball to Red at (high school) division line.

NFHS 4-19-9: A false double foul is a situation in which there are fouls by both teams, the second of which occurs before the clock is started following the first, and such that at least one of the attributes of a double foul is absent.

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1047565)

First of all you do not call a false double foul. Those just happen based on the the actions you have ruled.

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1047565)

And a dead ball contact technical at the NCAA level has a totally different penalty. Unless you call both plays a dead ball contact technical, then you would not go to POI on those situations.

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1047561)

A false double foul is when one of the fouls is live and the next foul is dead.

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1047562)

These were 2 different acts with 2 different penalties. Contact dead ball technical fouls do not follow the normal rules of putting the ball in play from the point of interruption. Rather, the offended team receives the ball at one of four spots in the frontcourt per Rule 7-3.2. The officials were following the old rule about ball placement on a contact dead ball technical foul. I get that it might not be discussed in pre-game, because it is an atypical situation, but I would expect NCAA tournament officials to put the ball in at the right spot.

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1047566)

Never stated that a false double foul was "called". But like JRutledge stated (paraphrased), it is what it is. If I had to explain the chain of (high school) events to a coach, or to my assigner, I would definitely use the phrase "false double foul", "Coaches, what we have here is a false double foul, so we're going to ... yada, yada, yada". As Casey Stengel said, "You can look it up".



Can't argue with that, JRutledge is a college guy, I'm certainly not.

And neither of my high school fouls example involved contact, sorry if I confused anybody.

Let's say that the profanity didn't happen, but was a unilateral dead ball flagrant punch.

Still, by rule, a high school false double foul.



Still say that JRutledge's definition of a false double foul (for high school only) is only partially correct, yes, it can be a live ball foul followed by a dead ball foul, but it can be two dead ball fouls (not at the same time) as well.

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1047568)

It was said by someone else that they called a false double foul.

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1047568)

I was not speaking on the behalf of high school not once in this topic.

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1047564)

... for those high school officials trying to compare/contrast as they follow this thread ...

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1047561)

A false double foul is when one of the fouls is live and the next foul is dead.

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1047564)

NFHS 4-19-9: A false double foul is a situation in which there are fouls by both teams, the second of which occurs before the clock is started following the first, and such that at least one of the attributes of a double foul is absent.

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1047569)

So can I assume that the high school definition (just the definition, not the penalty) of a false double foul is much different that NCAA,

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1047568)

It was said by someone else that they called a false double foul. They called a T that then led to dead ball contact foul. Again DBCF has a totally separate penalty, so you cannot just couple that with other Ts that are not related. And if they called a Flagrant foul, they cannot do that as well.

I was not speaking on the behalf of high school not once in this topic. So please stop making this about high school because that has totally different penalties or results.

Peace

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1047560)

As I've already posted, the rule book is wrong. A bulletin was sent out in regards to CDBT and Flagrant fouls. The throw-in was put in at the division line by mistake, as that used to be the throw-in spot for CDBT.

Bottom-line, if there is a Flagrant technical foul or CDBT technical foul involved, the offended team gets a throw-in at a designated spot. It is not administered as POI.

Originally Posted by Coach Bill (Post 1047573)

The bulletin that I read seemed to make it clear that this is correct rule to apply:



h. When a double technical foul or any simultaneous foul occurs during

a stopped-clock period, all fouls shall be charged but no free throws

shall be awarded if the penalties are equal. Only the number of free

throws awarded shall be used to determine if the penalties are equal. If

the penalties are not equal, all free throws shall be administered. The

game shall resume at the point of interruption using the procedures

in Rule 7-3.2 unless one team has been awarded possession of the ball

as part of a penalty.



Case Book Correction to A.R. 130 – Rewrite of Ruling – “When the technical fouls assessed against A1 and B1 occur during the same dead ball period, the technical fouls are charged but no free throws are awarded."



I think the correct ruling is no free throws, Norfolk Ball on the endline. But, like Raymond said the rule book is contradictory in places. There is a Foul/Penalty chart on page 113, that says on a double technical (live or dead), you don't shoot free throws unless one of the fouls is a flagrant 2. TBH, that is what I was looking at initially in the OP when I pointed out no one was ejected, and wondering why free throws were shot.

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1047567)

The four spots would apply if it were a front court throw-in. If it's a back court throw-in, it goes to a designated spot closest to where the infraction took place.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1047578)

AFAIK, the stoppage of play for the technical fouls was in Coppin State's backcourt (Norfolk State's frontcourt). A Norfolk State player mouthed off to a Coppin State player right after he scored, followed by the Coppin State player pushing him. Thus, Norfolk State would get the ball at the nearest spot to the infraction (in the frontcourt) following the free throws, and thus the 4 spots would apply.

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1047578)

AFAIK, the stoppage of play for the technical fouls was in Coppin State's backcourt (Norfolk State's frontcourt). A Norfolk State player mouthed off to a Coppin State player right after he scored, followed by the Coppin State player pushing him. Thus, Norfolk State would get the ball at the nearest spot to the infraction (in the frontcourt) following the free throws, and thus the 4 spots would apply.

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1047574)

4-15 Art. 4. False double foul. A false double foul occurs when there are fouls by both teams, the second of which occurs before the game clock is started after it is stopped for the first.

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1047570)

you can get the NCAA definition on line for free.