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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 14, 2022, 12:52pm
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Complain To The Lead ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Why is the coach on the floor ... and it seems like no one sends him back?
Yes, the Red coach does take a long (dead ball) walk all the way out to the lane to complain to the lead (who had his fist up for a Red foul) about the lack of a goaltending call from the lead. Wrong official to complain to, ignorant coach obviously doesn't know that it's usually the trail that makes such a call.

He's out there for about five seconds until he (literally) backs up toward his bench. Not sure if he was sent back, both officials are out of the frame, but the way he backs up after the second official enters the conversation hints to me that he was either warned to get back, or heard some "good news". Agree with JRutledge, not a good look. Worthy of a written warning? Sure. Worthy of a technical foul at this juncture in the game? Not so sure.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Mar 15, 2022 at 12:42pm.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 14, 2022, 01:06pm
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Count The Basket ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
... I hate the body language of the trail if he is calling such a big play.
Agree. Normally one would like this goaltending call to be emphatically made, "Count the basket", by the trail. I think that he was temporally put off by the lead's whistle, and didn't want to count the basket until he checked with his partner (travel, etc.).

By watching the Red team and their fans, even when the trail makes his decision, he doesn't announce it until he gets to the table, and it was never an emphatic signal.

Once the trail made his decision, I would have liked him to take a step away from his partner to an open area on the court and emphatically "slam down" the two points, "Count the basket".

And only then move toward the table to answer any polite questions from the White coach.

Agree with JRutledge, the trail's hesitancy and lack of a emphatic signal made his call look weak.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Mar 14, 2022 at 01:44pm.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 14, 2022, 01:32pm
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Pot Shots ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
And finally, get off the damn court. No way in hell I am still on the court and the game is clearly over. Not taking my time ...
Yes, the slow walk out of the gym gave the White coach a chance to take post-game "pot shots" at both officials. He should have made his points and finished his complaining when he had his chance with the trail at the table answering his questions. White coach got his explanation there, trail gave him plenty of time for a discussion, coach should have moved on, he didn't. In a win or go home game, it's tough to go home. I guess he needed some type of catharsis. Slow walking officials gave him that chance, so he took it.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Mar 14, 2022 at 03:19pm.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 14, 2022, 01:53pm
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This is goaltending. The ball is on its way down with a chance to enter the basket in flight. It would help if the trail gives an emphatic "Score the goal" signal and says "Score the goal!" so everyone can hear him. As Lead, I would keep the coach for Red off the floor. If he charges or does anything aggressive towards an official, he gets a technical foul. Same thing for the White coach.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 14, 2022, 02:09pm
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Backboard ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
It is really close, but it is on the way down.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
This is goaltending. The ball is on its way down with a chance to enter the basket in flight.
Did the ball come off the backboard, or was it a direct shot?
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 14, 2022, 02:53pm
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From my angle, it was a direct shot.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 14, 2022, 03:04pm
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If You're Not Sure, Don't Call It ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
From my angle, it was a direct shot.
I thought the same, also thought the ball was moving downward.

But that was only after watching the video several times.

Was I certain enough to make the call?

Maybe the trail had a slightly better look than we did?
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 14, 2022, 03:06pm
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He touched it on the way up and it hit the backboard after he touched it. It was clearly not a GT if you see the replay. It is on the FB pages and I even put up a better video there. Hard to link to here.

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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 14, 2022, 03:09pm
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Better Look ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
He touched it on the way up and it hit the backboard after he touched it. It was clearly not a GT if you see the replay. It is on the FB pages and I even put up a better video there.
Agree that the ball hit the backboard after the touch.

Better look? Gotta go along with JRutledge.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 14, 2022, 05:02pm
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I see this as a good block.
The Lead actually has the best look as he is at the top of the FT semicircle when the play happens. The Trail is well into the backcourt.

I’m also going to point out that the Trail does a poor job of managing the clock.
He makes this call with 8.6 on the clock, but due to the loud gym, the time runs down to 5.5 before stopping. No time is restored after the stoppage and discussion. The Trail needs to look at the clock in a situation like this, if he has a whistle. He can’t just wave his arm. He needs to have knowledge of the clock. The final possession could have been different with three more seconds.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 14, 2022, 08:49pm
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Could really care less about whether it was or was not GT.

What I do care about are:

1. If there was ever a time to sell a call by the T, this was it. Instead he waived his hand as though he just saw his grandma in the third row.

2. Really have to do a better job getting the coaches and teams corralled. Easier said then done.

3. With a nod to both 1 and 2, this is why we need 3-person crews. A stable slot official moving back and forth with more control amid the chaos of the moment would have had a much better look at this play. And regardless of how it would have been called, chances are it would have been more believable. Not to mention the clock then could have been managed better, and perhaps coach histrionics held in check. All worth the extra $100 or whatever progressive CT pay rate BillyMac always brags about. The CIAA and the cheapskate coaches and administrators who perpetuate this 2-person butt soup have only themselves to blame for an outcome like this. I feel zero sympathy.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 15, 2022, 06:15am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
I'd respond to the OP, but I don't want to interrupt the conversation.
Bob,

Do we have permission to use your quote in other threads??
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 15, 2022, 08:44am
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Clock Management ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
I’m also going to point out that the Trail does a poor job of managing the clock. He makes this call with 8.6 on the clock, but due to the loud gym, the time runs down to 5.5 before stopping. No time is restored after the stoppage and discussion. He needs to have knowledge of the clock. The final possession could have been different with three more seconds.
Agree. Surprised we missed this yesterday. Whether, or not, the goaltending was correct, or incorrect, this crew did a poor job on this play. Signals. Coach management. Clock management. Leaving the gym. All could have been done better.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Mar 15, 2022 at 09:04am.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 15, 2022, 09:04am
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Cheapskate Principals ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by crosscountry55 View Post
The (CIAC) and the cheapskate coaches and administrators who perpetuate this 2-person butt soup have only themselves to blame for an outcome like this.
The coaches aren't cheapskates. A small, but successful and vocal faction of the Connecticut Coaches Association believes that the extra official will lead to more fouls in their successful man to man, trapping full court press, fast break style programs. The athletic directors, principals, and the CIAC listens to them. The principals are the cheapskates.

The CIAC, a principal-centric organization, has mandated that early round games of the state tournament, both genders, and all school population classes, will be two person games. Quarterfinals, semifinals, and finals will be three person games. The state assigners (two genders, two state assigners) make rare exceptions and assign three person crews to a few early round state tournament games when they deem it necessary (powerhouse school rivalries). This was a round of eight game between two very small schools, from two different parts of the state (different conferences), that are not usually considered small school powerhouses.

Two problems in Connecticut regarding more three person games, regular season and post-season: First, the successful, vocal, and powerful faction of the Connecticut Coaches Association that don't want three person games. Second, the refusal of some (but certainly not all) of our six local IAABO boards (Connecticut is 100% IAABO, we have a single state-wide fee contract with annual automatic cost of living game fee increases based on average teacher cost of living increases) to accept a small per-official game fee cut for three person games, so some officials not willing to compromise on three person fees with cheapskate principals are a small part of the problem.

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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Mar 15, 2022 at 12:45pm.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 15, 2022, 09:39am
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Double Whistle Preliminary Signals ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Normally one would like this goaltending call to be emphatically made, "Count the basket", by the trail. I think that he was temporally put off by the lead's whistle, and didn't want to count the basket until he checked with his partner (travel, etc.). By watching the Red team and their fans, even when the trail makes his decision, he doesn't announce it until he gets to the table, and it was never an emphatic signal. Once the trail made his decision, I would have liked him to take a step away from his partner to an open area on the court and emphatically "slam down" the two points, "Count the basket". And only then move toward the table to answer any polite questions from the White coach ... the trail's hesitancy and lack of a emphatic signal made his call look weak.
Quote:
Originally Posted by crosscountry55 View Post
If there was ever a time to sell a call by the T, this was it. Instead he waived his hand as though he just saw his grandma in the third row.
Agree with crosscountry55 that this call should have been "sold" and never really was.

However, how many times have we been encouraged not to give preliminary signals on double whistles? If the trail had immediately and emphatically "slammed down" the two points, "Count the basket", and then discovered that the lead called a travel (even though he put up a fist) before the goaltend (with a late whistle, but with the travel before the goaltend), then we'd be discussing a different type of problem.

That being said, once the crew made the decision that it was a goaltend, the trail certainly did not do a very good job of selling the call. Add that to the poor coach management, poor clock management, and the slow walk out of the gym, and we've got a lot of room for improvement here.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Mar 15, 2022 at 10:20am.
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