Incorrectly charged technical foul
 

Looking for some feedback on a messed up situation.

A4 dunks during the pregame. The officials observe this and assess a technical foul. However, there is disagreement about how to charge the foul. The R ends up having it recorded as only a team technical foul along with an indirect to the HC.

During the second quarter A4 and B2 have a verbal confrontation and a double technical foul is called.

At halftime the crew looks in the rules book and sees that the technical for the pregame dunk should have been charged to A4.

What should they do?
DQ A4 prior to the start of the third quarter or deem the wrongly charged T something which cannot be changed at this point?

Mistake ...
 

Definitely isn't a correctable error, thus no time limitations.

Could it be a bookkeeping error, or is that pushing that envelope too far?

2-3?

10-5-1-I Bench Technical: The head coach is responsible for his/her own conduct and behavior, as well as substitutes, disqualified team members and all other bench personnel. Bench personnel, including the head coach, must not: Grasping either basket except to prevent injury; dunking or attempting to dunk or stuff a dead ball. Penalty: The foul is charged to the offender and also charged indirectly to the head coach.

After a fourth personal foul, if you find out later it was actually the offender’s fifth personal foul, that player is then disqualified. I don’t see how the situation would be any different when you found out after the fact that the first technical foul you charged was actually the second.


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And Scene ...
 

"Hey BillyMac. How can you do that? He is my best player and now he can't play in the second half. If I had known this at the beginning of the game I would have warned him to be less aggressive and I would have reigned him in during the game. Your mistake screwed my team. You f*****g suck."

Followup Discussion ...
 

"What the f**k? My best player sits on bench for the rest of the game and now I have to go and sit on the cold bus in the parking lot?

You're right, coach.

Merci Beaucoup ...
 

... and thank you".

Coach is ejected, call game administration to escort him out. If he won't leave, call the police officer.

Billy, I sought serious input from the forum on a situation for a friend and you sidetracked the thread. You do f***ing suck.

Ok, sorry to bring in a different sport (and different rules, obviously), but there might be a piece or two of good information contained therein.

From the USA Hockey casebook: May the Referee change an assessed penalty any time after play resumes if it is realized that a penalty was incorrectly assessed according to the playing rules?

No. Rule References 502(a and e).

The Referee may not add, change, or delete a penalty after play has resumed following penalty assessment. This includes after a game. If a rule has been misapplied, the Referee is obligated to inform the governing body so that a modification could be possible under Supplementary Discipline (Rule 410).

However, the Referee should change any clerical error noted on the scoresheet prior to signing the sheet. For example, if the Referee properly assessed a game misconduct penalty, but it was incorrectly recorded on the scoresheet as a misconduct, this should be corrected prior to signing the scoresheet.

= = =

The crew misapplied rule 10-5-1-i by not charging the TF directly to the offender for the pre-game dunk, but at least charged it indirectly to the HC, resulting in the loss of coaching-box privileges. Ruling this a Team Technical Foul is also misapplying a rule, as there is no provision to penalize a pre-game dunk in 10-2 (and any foul in this section does not cause the coach to lose the coaching box).

Since it is not a clerical error (which can be fixed anytime before the Referee approves the final score), and it is not a correctable error as in 2-10, my opinion is that the 'statute of limitations' would expire after the ball becomes live following the administration of the last part of the penalty (the division line throw-in). "Retroactively" assessing the TF to A4, due to a crew error of this kind, is unfair to A4.

If the crew had inadvertently assessed the TF to A14 and it was truly A4, that is 'fixable' even if it results in A4's disqualification for being A4's second TF.

This would probably be a good question to send to Indianapolis, because confusion over whether the player is charged with a T for a pre-game dunk is not all that uncommon. There’s also often confusion over whether or not it’s indirect to the HC.

You’d get the core question answered, and perhaps inspire a helpful case play or interp along the way.


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Impact Of Change ...
 

It was my attempt to humorously (obviously failed) explain what could possibly happen if officials decided to change (there is no statute of limitations here) the team technical foul to a bench technical foul coming out of halftime.

This would be a "high impact, high emotion" situation.

We have some varsity coaches here that would react in a manner very similar to the manner that I facetiously quoted.

Remember George Brett coming out of the dugout during the pine tar incident?

Odd rule "surprises", especially ones with so much impact, can really rile up both players and coaches.

Sorry if I sidetracked the thread, but I'm pretty sure that the impact of the change could affect the decision of some officials to make the change, or to not make the change, to remain silent, or to speak up.

As for me, knowing the possible impact, I think that I would make the change, and live with the repercussions, trying to be as patient as humanly possible with the impacted, possibly very angry, coach.

Correctable Mistake ...
 

Agree on both.

Default to 2-3: The referee must make decisions on any points not specifically covered in the rules.

But what's the right, or best, decision? Ay, there's the rub.

Core Question ...
 

Confusion due to the failure of the NFHS to explain sufficiently? Disagree. The officials just kicked the rule.

10-5-1-I Bench Technical: The head coach is responsible for his/her own conduct and behavior, as well as substitutes, disqualified team members and all other bench personnel. Bench personnel, including the head coach, must not: Grasping either basket except to prevent injury; dunking or attempting to dunk or stuff a dead ball. Penalty: The foul is charged to the offender and also charged indirectly to the head coach.

4.8.2 SITUATION: (b) a Team A member dunks during the pregame warm-ups. RULING: In (b), the foul counts toward disqualification and it counts as one of the seven team fouls to reach the bonus. In (b), a technical foul is also charged indirectly to Team A’s head coach resulting in the loss of coaching-box privileges. (10-3-3)

6.4.1 SITUATION A: Twelve minutes before the game is scheduled to start, team member A1 dunks the ball and is charged with a technical foul. RULING: The game will be started by awarding Team B two free throws for A1’s technical foul.

10.5.1 SITUATION E: Fifteen minutes before the game is scheduled to start, team member A1 dunks. Two minutes later A2 dunks. RULING: A1 and A2 are both charged with a technical foul. In addition, the head coach is charged indirectly with a technical foul for each act. The two fouls are team fouls for purpose of reaching the bonus. When dunking occurs during the pregame practice period the official notifies the team member and the head coach, but does not sound the whistle. If the game is played in a state which utilizes the optional coaching box, the coach should be informed that he/she has lost the privilege of using the coaching box for the entire game. (10-4-1i)


Core question here is, once the error (mistake) is made, can the error (mistake) be corrected?

Should it be corrected?

It's definitely not a correctable error, and probably not a bookkeeping error. So what is it? That might be worth an annual interpretation, or a caseplay.

Odd Rule Surprises Rile Up Players And Coaches ...
 

1983. For the young'uns.

Enjoy.

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Keep It Simpler ...
 

Let's put it this way to lessen the impact aspect.

A4 dunks during the pregame. The officials observe this and assess a team technical foul along with an indirect to the HC. For the first half, A4 is neither charged with any additional technical fouls nor any personal fouls. At halftime the crew looks in the rulebook and sees that the technical for the pregame dunk should have been charged to A4 as a bench technical foul.

What does the referee do coming out after halftime in this "low emotion, low impact" situation?

Remain silent? Mention the mistake to the coaches and rule that nothing can be done about it? Mention the mistake to the coaches and make the change (correct the mistake)?

Should the referee do the same thing here (no immediate disqualification) as in Nevadaref's original post (possible immediate disqualification)?

What if this was "discovered" two minutes into the first period? Too late?

What would James Naismith do?

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.r...=0&w=259&h=179

More Questions Than Answers ...
 

Nevadaref: How did I do? Better? We good?

More questions than answers, but I tried, gave it my best shot.

Still believe that an impacted angry coach (he may have good reason to be angry) is part of the equation, but should such possible repercussions affect the "right" decision, whatever it may be?

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.O...=0&w=224&h=168

No need. There is no confusion on this rule. Everything you need on this is pretty clear in the rule book.

• All team members are bench personnel in pregame.
• Deadball dunk = T to the offender
• T's by bench personnel other than the head coach are charged indirectly to the head coach

I don’t disagree, but that doesn’t stop serial rule kickers from kicking rules.

But sigh, you’re probably right: what good does putting a case in the case book do for those not inclined to review it every year?

I had two veteran officials with 60 combined years of experience try to convince me a few days ago that if I called a contact foul during a throw-in, it had to be technical. Good play callers, but probably haven’t read through the books in years.

I even asked them: “So if before the thrower releases the ball, say a defender holds a cutter, you’re saying that’s a technical foul?” They said “yes.” I was beside myself in disbelief. Frustrating.


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Rulebook ...
 

So you would make the change?

Nitpicking: Dead ball dunk is a separate rule than a pregame dunk. Dead ball dunk is a player technical foul (no indirect to head coach). Pregame (dead ball) dunk (no players yet) is a bench technical foul (indirect to head coach).

Not My Finest Hour ...
 

Had something similar a few years ago, but the hold (an arm grab) was before I had handed the ball to the inbounder to start a period. Surprised me and I sounded my whistle. Ended up calling it a dead ball intentional technical foul. Not my finest hour. Should have just gone inadvertent whistle, told the player to, "Knock it off", and moved on.

Serial Rule Kickers ...
 

Two very good, experienced, junior varsity officials (both working some varsity games) before my varsity game a few years ago. Game was running very late so we watched from the locker room door. Shooting foul with all zeros on the clock and a buzzer to end the game. Twenty point game. Officials put free throw shooter on line with rebounders. I can understand one official not knowing the rule, but both? My partner and I were going to discuss it with them at halftime of our game, but they hightailed it out the door, without showering, or changing, before we tossed to start our varsity game.

Make the change.

This way it is now incumbent on the offending coach to make sure the technical foul was correctly assessed to his player.



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What bothers me is if/when people who do not study the rules dispense rules knowledge to newer officials.

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Whole Package ...
 

Forty years ago, when I started officiating, a premium was put on "play calling" and "game management", even at the expense of rules knowledge, mechanics, and signals. They got assigned the best games, and the tournament games, even if they occasionally, or often, kicked an "odd" situation rule (correctable error, false double foul, etc.).

We learned a lot from them about "play calling" and "game management", and I thank them for that, but most of us knew, in the back of our minds, that these guys (and they were all guys back then) had limitations and were about to become relics of past, and that we needed to learn "more" to progress in the modern game.

As time passed, the best games, and the tournament games, seemed to be more assigned to officials with the "whole package", or close to it. "Play calling" and "game management" are still very important, but now other things, like rules knowledge, are also valued.

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To me, the rules are clear, and it feels more like a clerical error than anything else. Coach should have known that the pre-game dunk affects his player. So, advise the coach his player is done for the day and move on.

A few weeks ago for me: different situation, but same type of concern with a pissed-off coach. I was working table of my son's junior high game as official scorer, and I had a student next to me running the scoreboard. During the 4th quarter, a technical foul was assessed directly to head coach of the visitors for constantly running his mouth. I recorded it in the book correctly, and had told the student that he needed to add the tech to the team fouls on the board, but he either did not hear me or did not ask for clarification.

A minute or so later, down to a minute to go and visitors are down by 3. During dead ball period, coach calls timeout to strategize with the team. Scoreboard shows 5 fouls for his team, so he thinks he has a foul to use without free throws. During the timeout, I compare book to board and tell the student to add a team foul because we're at 6 for them. Ball is put at disposal of home team, who inbounds, and immediate visitor foul. I signal 1-and-1 to the reporting official who looks bewildered, looks up at the scoreboard, and comes over to discuss (because he also thought we were at 5), where I explain that the TF hadn't been recorded on the board as a team foul. He nodded in understanding, signaled the bonus to his partner, and they set up for the FT. Meanwhile, visitor head coach is apoplectic, saying that he thought he had the foul to give and "would have never told [his player] to foul on the inbound had it been reflected correctly" (which we all know is a complete lie, but hey, no harm in trying). He then made some snide comments about table causing him to lose the game. Coach's fault he didn't talk to his own scorekeeper, sitting next to him.

Turns out they lost by 1... because the home team made both TF FT's.

Slings And Arrows ...
 

Nice post FlasherZ. Welcome to the Forum.

Failing to add technical fouls to the team total, either in the scorebook and/or on the scoreboard, is a very common occurrence in subvarsity games, especially middle school games (and occasionally varsity games). And when notified, officials don't ignore the mistake, we fix it, and shoot free throws.

One and one, or no one and one, is impactful, but not quite as impactful as losing a player (who can dunk) for a half, but there are still similarities in these two situations. Not a correctable error, no statute of limitations, so we can fix it (seemingly contrary to it not being a correctable error), even if we have to deal with slings and arrows (and profane language) from a coach.

Take it out of context. A4 is penalized for a pregame dunk. Later A4 charged with a technical foul for an unsporting verbal confrontation with an opponent. By rule, where does A4 belong? Answer: A4 belongs (disqualified) on the bench.

Yes, there are complicating factors, but the bottom line is that A4, by rule, belongs (disqualified) on the bench.

This should have been cleared up with the crew chief as soon as you noticed there was a discrepancy.

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Are we doing the same in this scenario?

First quarter: B2 breaks the plane of the end line and fouls thrower A1. Calling official properly rules an intentional personal foul on B1 but misapplies the rule by neglecting to have the scorekeeper record a delay-of-game warning as in 9-2-10.

Late in the fourth quarter, B3 breaks the plane of the sideline during a Team A throw-in. Administering official rules a warning for delay on Team B and reports it to the scorer.

One of the crew then remembers the IPF from the first quarter and they confer with the scorer who indicates no one reported the delay in the first quarter.

= = =

If this is handled the same way as a pre-game dunk in the OP, then the second instance of breaking the plane will result in a Team Technical Foul as in 10-2-1c without prior notice to the Team B head coach.

I still maintain that if the crew misapplies a rule, there is a point when it becomes too late to penalize.

Did the timer at some point notice that the scorer did not record a delay of game warning and asked them about it? If so, yes they should get with the crew chief at some point.

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I hope it's different where you are, Ray, but I could almost bet that 10 of 10 timers & scorekeepers I've had on my crew wouldn't know anything about assessing a delay warning along with the IPF unless an official specifically said so.

I'm going by FlasherZ's situation. He should have at some point brought it up to the on-court crew.

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This is a great take-away. More table officials should have the courage to share information with floor officials. Many of them feel that they don’t have the authority to do so. As floor officials, we can help with this by ingratiating ourselves with the table personnel before the game. It’s important for them to feel empowered as members of the crew. True, floor officials always get the final say, but I’ll never turn down helpful information.


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I’m Late, I’m Late, For A Very Important Date …
 

What is that point?

What if nobody was going to be immediately disqualified?

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Table Personnel ...
 

Had a great, veteran partner who, as the referee, when checking the scorebook pregame, would always introduce himself and learn the names of the timer, home scorekeeper, and visitor scorekeeper, and address them by name throughout the game.

On the other hand ...

BillyMac: "Hey fella. Put your damn cell phone away."

BillyMac: "Hey pal. Look up at me when I report fouls".

BillyMac: "Hey buddy. How many team fouls?".

Now, where are my reading glasses?

We're digressing from the original point of the post, but I'd like to address this.

Yes, I could have stopped the inbounds to have an official come over to notify him. However, the official scorer was correct, the two officials were opposite side (nowhere near the table), we had a student volunteer scoreboard operator without a lot of expertise, and coaches are told to know their situation and not rely upon the scoreboard for anything but time and the score (especially in junior high games). So among all the other things going on, it didn't rank in priority to call over the officials to note that we corrected the team fouls on the scoreboard.

It's a junior high school game with 2-man court crew, student timer, and unpaid father as a scorekeeper. I have the courage to share information with the floor officials, because I believe what crosscountry wrote, above, but there are many times I've gotten the holier-than-thou attitude from game officials. At halftime of one game this year, "DON'T SWITCH THE ARROW UNTIL I'VE TOLD YOU TO!!!" was literally yelled at me after I noted that I had already switched it (and we keep the backup arrow on the scoreboard as well, which isn't subject to switching at halftime).

In fact, many of those officials don't even know that I have done my share of officiating games. The ones that do, know that they have a third man sitting at the table to help them out and we get along really well. Others feel like they have to "own the show". Those that consider the table crew partners are good officials... there are too many that do not consider them partners.

If you had informed me, I would have thanked you then informed the offending team we had added a team foul to their count, before putting the ball in play. Of course, when I call a technical foul, I also take time to ensure the table personnel know it is also a team foul, and if applicable, a personal foul.

Messed Up Situation ...
 

Nevadaref: We've all had three days to ponder this.

What say you?

What would you advise your friend?

Friendly Neighborhood Basketball Official ...
 

Almost all of my middle school games don't have team fouls on scoreboards, and many have student timekeepers and/or scorekeepers. Pregame, I always advise both coaches to let officials know if they even think that we're close to seven team fouls, and that I don't ever mind a friendly, "One and one", reminder from either coach.

And while I don't actually keep an accurate running count in my head, when my spider sense starts to tingle, I don't hesitate to ask the table how many team fouls there are. Usual answer is five, or six. Better to be safe than sorry.

I don't believe the question in the OP has been addressed satisfactorily, rather a different question later on was.

Are we "retroactively" disqualifying A4, even after a confirmed misapplication of a rule, or does the the crew
have to "embrace the suck" and allow A4 to continue to participate?

Known-rules experts on this forum have, inexplicably, not yet weighed in.

I don't think it's covered, but I'd charge A4 with the T and DQ him.

I would too.

Because it's not covered in the rule and case books or published interpretations.

Any rulings giving by individuals are just their opinions on how they would handle it.

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Retroactive Disqualification ...
 

The phrase retroactive disqualification seems so severe and harsh (though factually true).

Let's calm down the emotions by changing the original situation.

Let's say that the question of the mistaken rule, or misapplication of the rule, comes to the attention (because at least one of them thought "Hmmm") of the officials as they are reporting the unsporting technical foul.

Still too late to change the team technical foul to a bench (and offender) technical foul?

Even less emotion (below), no disqualification.

Also, we do have a retroactive disqualifications when the scorekeeper fails to inform the officials of a fifth team member foul, and later communicates such to the officials.