End of quarter - "All related activity"
 

V4 is called for a PC foul as time expires in 2Q. As T is reporting the foul to the table, V3 says something as he passes the official on his way to the bench that earns him a TF.

Is the reporting of the foul considered to be a part of "all related activity" in 5-6-2 Exception 3? My instincts say no. Since no FTs would be shot as part of a PC foul, the quarter ended when the clock expired. The TF is penalized to start 3Q.

That is an interesting question, because if it were the 4th quarter, and there was a difference in the score close enough where the free throws would matter (anything between a 2-point visitor lead to a tie game), the free throws would be shot as part of the 4th quarter. Since it is the 2nd quarter, there is no legal resumption of play for the player control foul possible in the 2nd quarter. However, as the officials were still on the court reporting the foul, the penalty for the technical foul can and will be assessed. Since intermission had not yet started when the technical foul was committed, the offender was not bench personnel, and so the coach will not be required to sit. By rule, I would start the clock for the intermission, shoot the free throws during the intermission, set the arrow the correct way, and award the ball to B to start the 3rd quarter, regardless of the arrow, because of the technical foul penalty.

That's clearly wrong.

The only options are:

A) Shoot the FTs for the T as part of the second quarter, start the clock when the FTs are done, leave the arrow with the current team and start the third quarter with an AP throw-in.

B) Start the intermission, leave the arrow with the same team, start the third quarter with the FTs for the T and the throw-in as part of the T penalty.

All Possible Scenarios ...
 

It certainly is. Just when we think that we've exhausted all possible scenarios, something new like this pops up.

Thanks Altor.

We couldn't even listen to bob, he couldn't make up his mind.

Intermission Already Started ...
 

Agree. I think that the intermission started, and players became bench personnel, when ball became dead with the player control foul.

Have you've done this (in NFHS rules), ilyazhito? Run the intermission clock while shooting free throw(s)? Did the teams stick around or go off to their locker room?

Also, since I know won't be able to find this rule (or case book play), would you please share it here?

halftime T
 

I've assessed a technical foul at halftime after a coach persistently argued about something that happened moments prior. The other team was already off the floor. They came back to a welcome surprise to start the 3rd period (2 FTs and the ball).

That's how I would administrate any T that occurs after the expiration of playing time during the first half.

Which is, of course, 5-6-2 Exception 4:

If a technical foul occurs after the ball becomes dead to end a quarter or extra period, the next quarter or extra period is started by administering the free throws. If the fourth quarter or extra period ends and the score is tied, the free throws will start the extra period. If the score is not tied and the results of the free throws would tie or win the game, the free throws are administered as part of the preceding quarter/period.

I gotcha covered on this one, BillyMac!

Free Throws Are To Be Awarded ...
 

Be careful.

If a foul is called at the exact time of the period ending buzzer, and if free throws are to be awarded (with no rebounders on the lane) those free throws would still be a part of that period, and any technical foul charged during those free throws would also be part of that period, even though "playing time" had expired. It's all a part of "related activity". Once the final technical foul free throw is made, or misses, and the ball becomes dead, the intermission has then finally started.

Technical foul before intermission. Technical foul free throws are part of that period. Next period starts with the alternating possession arrow and switch arrow as one normally would. If technical foul charged to player, no indirect technical foul to head coach.

Technical foul during intermission. Technical foul free throws are part of the next period. After technical foul free throws, period starts with offended team getting the ball at division line opposite the table (don't switch arrow). Technical foul charged to team member would be bench personnel and an indirect technical foul to head coach, who takes a seat (best seat in the house, people pay big bucks for floor court side seats).

In this case it was a PC foul with no possibility of free throws. So when did the quarter end, with the horn or after the foul is reported?

Dead Ball ...
 

When the ball became dead because of the player control foul (if foul occurred simultaneously with the horn), maybe even before the whistle.

Same as if the ball becomes dead because of the travel violation that occurs simultaneously with the horn. Ball is dead, intermission begins.

Don't think that it has anything to do with reporting, except if reporting a common foul and the table informs the official it's a bonus situation, that's another story.

Now if the foul penalty requires free throws (act of shooting, etc.), that's another story.

And of course, if the foul occurred after the horn and was not intentional or flagrant (dead ball foul), that's another story.

And if the foul was seconds, or split seconds, before the horn, with definite knowledge by the officials, that's also another story.

Basketball Rules Fundamentals #16: The official’s whistle seldom causes the ball to become dead (it is already dead).

5-6-2 Exception 4: If a technical foul occurs after the ball becomes dead to end a quarter or extra period, the next quarter or extra period is started by administering the free throws.

It’s funny to me, if this foul/expiration of time scenario involved a shooting foul, we’d already be 30 posts deep into our debate about whether 0.3 seconds should be added to the clock so we can put players on the lane.

And yet in this PCF scenario, everyone here seems content to agree that since the timer isn’t a robot and couldn’t stop the clock in time, we allow time to remain expired.

What’s the difference?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Definite Knowledge ...
 

No procedure to add 0.3 seconds per NFHS rules, except with definite knowledge (of any amount of time), and with that there's nothing "magical" about 0.3 (except a tap not a catch and shoot).

I have absolutely no qualms about putting a shooter on the line with 0:00 and a buzzer (no rebounders) if I was sure that the foul happened before, or at, the horn. 0.3 would have never entered my mind.

Not sure about other rule sets (NBA, WNBA, NCAAM, NCAAW, FIBA)

Pure [speculation] here: those of us who remember "lag time" did not seem to have much of an issue adjusting to "definite knowledge" when it replaced "lag time" even though 5-6-2 Exception 3 still begins with, "If a foul occurs so near the expiration of time that the timer cannot get the clock stopped before time expires..."

Either that or it's 'contamination' from collegiate rules where they are allowed to put time back after video review under certain conditions. [/speculation]

My mentee had an interesting play in a D3 game last week.

H-73 V-71 w/0:06 left in game. V1 ends up driving to the basket from slot side. H2 slides over near RA to draw a charge. V1 elevates and releases shot barely prior to LED/horn. After releasing shot and after LED/horn, H1 crashes into V2. V2 was both in the RA and did not have an LGP, so no question as to it being a block. My mentee puts his fist up but never blows his whistle.

It was a rare situation where even if they had a monitor, it would have been free throws w/the lane cleared and 0:00 on the clock because we had an airborne shooter who had released the try before, but was fouled after, the expiration of time.

Good example. That is the rare situation where that would happen at levels above NFHS. I think it even happened in an NBA playoff game last spring (though in this case on a jump shot from the corner).

That situation notwithstanding, the percolation of the “gotta put some time back on” philosophy to the NFHS game—even without definite information—is something that annoys me. I agree with BM on this one. There’s no NFHS rules support for this, but even my own rules interpreter insists that there is. [emoji35]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

"Definite Knowlege" existed with "Lag Time". The "Lag Time" provision just limited "Definite Knowledge" corrections to be no less than 1.0 seconds.

And a perfect example showing that the idea that you must have time on the clock if you have foul with FTs is just not true.

The related activity is reporting the foul. Since related activity for period 2 had not yet ended, intermission had not started, and the player who mouthed off is still a player. The technical foul and free throws are shot as part of the 3rd period, and Team B gets possession regardless of the arrow. The arrow is used for the next AP throw-in.

Reference?

Either way, the rest of your statement is again incorrect.

If period 2 has not ended, then the FTs are shot as part of period 2, there is no throw-in for the T and period 3 starts with the "normal" AP throw-in.

Or, period 2 has ended and period 3 starts with the FTs for the T and the throw-in for the T.

Related Activity ...
 

Interesting take on this situation (no free throws due to player control foul).

Worthy of further discussion?

Ball can't get deader than dead? Dead is dead? Right?

Seems pretty binary. Only two choices. Dead. Or live.

5-6 Exceptions:
2. If a held ball or violation occurs so near the expiration of time that the clock is not stopped before time expires, the quarter or extra period ends with the held ball or violation.
3. If a foul occurs so near the expiration of time that the timer cannot get the clock stopped before time expires or after time expires, but while the ball is in flight during a try or tap for field goal, the quarter or extra period ends when the free throw(s) and all related activity have been completed. No penalty or part of a penalty carries over from one quarter or extra period to the next, except when a correctable error, as in 2-10, is rectified.
4. If a technical foul occurs after the ball has become dead to end a quarter or extra period, the next quarter or extra period is started by administering the free throws. This applies when the foul occurs after any quarter has ended, including the fourth quarter, provided there is to be an extra period.

End of 3rd Quarter. Airborne A1 releases try before horn, crashes into defender after horn. PCF is ruled. As Ref is reporting foul, which is A1's 5th, A1 yells out "that was bullsh!t".

Interesting Turn ...
 

"Dead" ball may have ended the third period.

Raymond may be implying that the reporting of the foul, as well as the disqualification procedure, is "related activity" and thus, still part of the third period, and thus, the unsporting technical foul is also part of the third period.

This thread has taken a very interesting turn.

Yes, please.

No, it isn't. Reporting is a scorekeeping task, not a related activity. Related activities are things that occur in the game itself, not what the officials do. Related activity is anything that happens with the FTs, like a FT violation, or a timeout taken before the FTs are completed.


The moment the ball becomes dead and there are no FTs pending, the quarter is over and anything that happens is now part of the next quarter.

Dead Ball ...
 

Nicely and simply stated. I agree, but others may not.

Related activity is not defined in the rulebook, so either of us might be right. If the quarter is over, then by rule the players become bench personnel, and the coach would have to sit in the 3rd quarter, because all team members are bench personnel during an intermission. Do you want to go this route?

First, you have mixed your decision and its consequences. If you consider period 2 to not yet have ended, then the technical foul is part of that period and the penalty is administered during that quarter, not the next one, which would start normally with the AP arrow.

Secondly, I believe that the phrase “all related activity” applies to game action of the players, not anything that the officials or scorer/timer must do.

Consider a try released near the period sounding horn which enters the basket after the horn sounds. Is the official’s decision to count the goal part of that quarter? Perhaps this takes a moment or some discussion. What about the scorer needing to then record the points in the book? Or the clock/scoreboard operator putting the points on the board?

How would you handle an unsporting comment made by a team member or coach while the officials are discussing the try or the table crew has yet to record the result of it?

For what it’s worth, I agree with Camron. Those of us who have been officiating much longer than you, have a better sense of what the NFHS means by certain phrases in the rules book. Of course, the veterans can be incorrect from time to time, but we definitely have more experience working with these rules and their language.

Yes, I would consider the player to now be bench personnel and assess an indirect to the HC as part of the penalty.

(Note: BillyMac, find the song reference in this post!)

Either of us might be right, sure. But, I can tell you it isn't you.

Once time is expired and there are no FTs left, yes, they're all bench personnel and everything that implies. So, yes, I want to go that route because that is the rule.

I'm quicker witted than BillyMac, and I didn't have to ask Google...

Buffalo Springfield!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80_3..._channel=RHINO

So, going back to my OQ, what I'm gathering is:

Nobody has a hard reference as to whether reporting the foul is "related activity." Most seem to think it isn't, which was my first instinct.

The rest I knew:
If it is part of 2Q: The FTs are shot before the intermission clock starts. 3Q starts with the AP arrow.

If it is part of 3Q: V-HC is additionally assessed and indirect TF and has to sit the rest of the game. The FTs are shot after the intermission clock ends. After the FTs, H is awarded a throw-in opposite the table as part of the penalty. The arrow does not change.

If you desire a case play or an NFHS annual interpretation ruling, you won’t find one. I haven’t seen such in 25 years.

However, if you look at the text of the rule, I believe that it is quite clear.

“…the quarter or extra period ends when the free throw(s) and all related activity have been completed.”

So for a period to not end when the ball becomes dead following the period-ending horn, there must be a foul while a try is in flight and that foul must result in free throws. Since a PC foul does not, this exception does not apply and the quarter is over.

Additionally, the phrase “and all related activity” refers to the free throws, not the quarter, so if there aren’t any free throws, then there cannot be any related activity.

While I agree the OP should have the T be part of the third quarter, I think it's a slippery slope to put too much stock in the specific wording -- we've seen plenty of examples where the wording is sloppy and a literal reading results in nonsensical interpretations.

Why not edit the rulebook to reflect that? "The period does not end until all activity related to the foul has ended. This includes reporting the foul and administering the subsequent free throws. If no free throws are appointed, the period is immediately ended, and the intermission begins after the foul is reported to the official scorer." This would clear up some of the confusion in this thread for future games.

When a player fouls out isn't there a process in place that needs to be adhered to before any other actions ensue, such as commencing an intermission or time out?

If there is a technical foul prior, is the whole notification and substitution process ignored if it is the end of a quarter?

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Buffalo Springfield ...
 

Nice pop culture reference Nevadaref. Thanks.

Thanks justacoach. I was stumped.

I am very familiar with the song, but didn't know the real name of the song. I thought it was "Stop, Hey What's That Sound".

Stephen Stills said that the name of the song came about when he presented it to the record company executives, "I have this song here, for what it's worth, if you want it." The executives gave the single the parenthetical title "For What It's Worth (Stop, Hey What's That Sound)" (often referred to as simply "For What It's Worth") in order that the song would be more easily recognized.

I'm surprised that I didn't know this. I'm a Stephen Stills and Neil Young (Buffalo Springfield band members) fan (along with Graham Nash and David Crosby).

For the young'uns, the band took their name from a steamroller parked outside their house.

https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.h...=0&w=263&h=175

Identity Changed ...
 

Yes there is because said player needs their identity changed from a player to bench personnel as soon as possible (for indirect technical foul purposes), and this is an important "activity".

I believe that you are confusing the replacement interval with the notification process. The player immediately becomes bench personnel upon the notification of the coach that the individual has committed a disqualifying foul (fifth total, two technical, or one flagrant). Now it may take up to fifteen seconds for a new player to report and enter the contest, but that doesn’t have anything to do with the status of the disqualified individual.

Mr. Soul ...
 

"I’m not sure where they got their name but I know that in the past year they sold enough records and made enough money to buy Buffalo and half of Springfield."

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/3V8VvEzuQ6Y" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Slings And Arrows ...
 

Agree (changed it).

Did it to point out the official may be standing there for up to fifteen seconds taking the slings and arrows of unsporting conduct.

Can we wait until after the intermission to beckon the substitute? If one believes we can't, has the period really ended before the substitute is beckoned?

I know that we can't grant a timeout request until the substitute is beckoned.

5.8.3 SITUATION C: A1 fouls B2. The scorer notifies the nearest official that this is A1’s fifth foul. The official notifies the coach of Team A of the disqualification. The official then instructs the timer to begin the 15-second replacement period. The official then notifies A1. After 10 seconds have elapsed: (a) the captain of Team A; or (b) the captain of Team B requests a time-out. RULING: In (a) and (b), the time-out request is denied as disqualified A1 must be replaced prior to any time-out being granted to either team. (2-8-4; 10-5-2)

The NFHS certainly could have written the rule the way that you describe or could make a change to have it become that. However, that is not the case now, and therefore, the period ends prior to the reporting of any foul for which there will not be any free throws.
There is even a case play in which free throws would be awarded for a foul during a try after the horn, but the team is down by too many points for the free throws to impact the outcome and the ruling is that the quarter is over, yet as the officials are leaving the court the coach of the winning team commits an unsporting technical foul. Now the total number of free throws could make a difference in the winner and the officials must stay and administer until a winner is determined or OT is warranted. So we do have a bizarre case ruling in which a quarter has ended, but then that is reversed due to the game having not yet ended and something else happening.

Yes, but the quarter is still over before the player is officially disqualified. You are correct that a time-out cannot be granted until a DQ’d player is replaced, but a period can certainly end prior to that. In fact, there is no need to replace the player if the game is ending.

For such occurring at the horn of quarters 1, 2, or 3, or with a tied score in the 4th or extra period, the notification and substitution process wouldn’t be ignored, it would simply take place after the official end of the period.

Final regular season high school game of my career, 19th season doing high school.

First time I've ever called a technical foul going into halftime (assistant coach mouthing off and cursing as I was going to the table)

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Bob:

I would go with Option "B". Reporting the PCF is just bookkeeping duties on the part of the covering Official.

MTD, Sr.

Sorry to hear. HS officiating will be losing a quality ref.
I hope that you will continue to participate on the forum. I’ve always respected your views and opinions, even when you went by BNR.

Thanks for the kind words. Participating in this forum, and a few of you in particular, are a major reason I have a reputation as a rules guru in my association. There are many times my rules research begins with something posted here.

I plan on staying connected with my association as a camp clinician and in-season observer.

I am also currently mentoring 4 officials:

- one young man who came to us straight out of HS and is now a D1/D3 official and works his HS ball in the Catholic League up in DC. If he sticks with it (he has a great 9-to-5 job that he definitely prioritizes), he'll be in the ACC one day.

- a young lady who just started this past year and wants to be a D1 Men's official. She was one of the all-time leading scorers in D3 history and has been playing overseas professionally for the past decade. She has a great foundation and the right temperament to be successful

- 2 buddies of mine who just finished working their first seasons on the NCAA-Women's side

I'll also continue to post NCAA videos on our association's FB page. Most of what is in those videos applies to HS just as much as it does to college.

(BTW, on my penultimate evening the day before, in my last ever DH, the JV game went quadruple OT, another first for me. My zipper then promptly broke and I had to ref the Varsity game with safety pins holding my fly closed)

Split Their Pants ...
 

I always tell my trainees to wear black underpants (compression shorts) just in case they split their pants, and to pack a few safety pins in their bag. I always told them that I wouldn't bet my house that it would happen to them, but that I also wouldn't bet my house that it wouldn't happen to them.

Raymond, I echo the words from Nevadaref. Many refs can learn a lot from you.
Happy Trails

Sorry to hear that. Hope you are still doing some college or other levels. I get it, this can be a grind sometimes. But congrats on your high school career.

Peace

Thanks and thanks.

Nope, I'll be letting it all go. Still have 2 college games left this week. I have not been in very good physical condition this season, but I do have one supervisor who told me to be on standby for some post-season assignments.

As A Very Esteemed Member ...
 

... and, hopefully, continuing to post high quality high school comments and opinions on the Forum.

Same for me, this Forum is a great resource.

Same for me, severe arthritis in my right foot. Due to many inactive local officials (COVID), I'm very much in demand and have been working every weekday and almost all Saturdays, limping through the season doing all subvarsity (usually middle school) games. Thinking about having a few screws inserted in my foot, or giving up officiating completely, a thought that's never crossed my mind before.

https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.z...=0&w=171&h=171

Congratulations raymond
 

Raymond, count me among the many who have appreciated your contributions to The Forum!

Bill

Congratulations and good luck on your post-officiating life.

After a successful try, a technical foul is called on player for taunting at the same time the horn sounds signaling the end of the quarter.

When do we shoot FTs for the technical foul? Is the player now bench personnel?

I'm not sure that's possible, by rule (extending the "a violation and a foul can't happen at the same time" ruling). Decide which happened first and adjudicate accordingly.

It did. Official blew whistle and raised hand at same time as the horn/lights on backboard.

Always Listen To bob ...
 

... remembering that the taunting foul may not have come at the same time as the whistle, it probably occurred split seconds before the whistle.

Violation ...
 

Not sure that a game clock sounding to end a period can be considered a violation, but I understand the point.