Block or Charge? Non-torso contact
 

These types of plays can sometimes be difficult to judge, IMHO.
Possible legal defender and the offensive player changes direction via a euro-step and makes contact with the defender outside the torso, normally with the shoulder. Defender falls to the ground and the offensive player flails away and puts up an attempt/shot.
What do you have?

I try not to read too deep into the rule book and there are so many different philosophies on block/charges that come into this mix.
Referee the defense
What did the defender do wrong?
Players don't have to "take" a charge
Offensive initiated contact (OIC)
Torso contact for charges, shoulder contact blocks

And obviously the defense can move (not forward) as long as they're essentially not undercutting the shooters start for the attempt. But what about the offense? They have the onus to avoid contact by stopping or changing direction, in order to try to get their body past the torso of the defender. So, does the attempt to change direction and OIC into the shoulder of a legal defender change this call in either way?

Seems as though this contact ends up in block calls the majority of the time, at most/all levels. I'd be interested to hear everyone's thoughts on this call, these theories, and our never ending battle for call consistency across the world/nation/state/chapter.

That's wrong

No it does not.

Then "most" are wrong. We properly called this a PC foul yesterday.

What causes the officials being fooled into calling some of these blocks is the defender flopping from the minimal contact. We have offensive players that are spinning away from the defender or changing directions and there is minimal contact to the shoulder and the defender throws himself backward like they've been hit by Ronnie Lott. Since we know the contact should not have created that reaction, the defense loses the benefit of the doubt.

I've seen a lot of plays on video this season where players embellishing contact actually works against them. Had a game this season where we twice missed illegal by a defender into the legs of a ballhandler because the ballhandler threw his head back distracting our concentration from the point of contact.

I had a play last week where a defender bumps a ballhandler from behind and I call a foul. I look at the video and the contact was incidental, but because the defender threw his head back like it was a big collision, I thought the contact was more severe than it actually was.

I agree. That's why a flop warning in high school basketball is overdue. It has eliminated much of the tomfoolery in men's college games around flopping, does not cost anything, and has a clear progression of penalties. If officials are willing to use the official flop warning early and often, teams will get the message.

Words Of The Wise ...
 

Realistic officiating by a very experienced basketball official.

Pay attention young'uns and everybody else.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...1a24bb9b6a.jpg

Look That Up In Your Funk & Wagnalls (Dan Rowan, Laugh In, 1968) ......
 

I looked it up in my Funk & Wagnalls.

Torso: the main part of the human body not including the head, arms, and legs.

4-7-2: Charging is illegal personal contact caused by pushing or moving into an opponent’s torso

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_gg-Rwg6lrg...0/torso_05.jpg

Is the defender displaced by the contact or does the defender fall down in an attempt to draw an offensive foul?

The first is a charge, the second is a no-call.

Problem is sometimes "most" are pretty high up on the ladder....js
I don't disagree, but much like verticality and handchecks...when you're outside of the majority but correct on the call it can make things difficult in our profession and you get the consistency spiel from the coaches.

My personal philosophies here are legal defender and OIC. And then as discussed, does the OIC warrant charge or was the defender selling snake oil to @BillyMac. :)

I had an issue with a kid flopping earlier this month. I didn't get the chance to warn him before another breakaway play where I was Lead. He fell backwards in an attempt to fool me for the charge call with zero (I mean ZERO!) contact. I called a block. I didn't love that the ball went in and had to score the bucket, but....I reported and told the coach - sorry but there was zero contact on that play and your player flat out flopped. I call a block or a technical there, so please let him know he needs to stop flopping. Coach had no problem with that.

Just because the coach did not have a problem does not indicate that the way you adjudicated this play is correct. The solution should never be to make up rules. There is no basis for calling a block on this play.

It is not a TF for "flopping", it is a TF for faking being fouled.

If B1 has a LGP against A1 and while in his/her LGP A1, makes contact with any part of B1's body that tells us that A1 breached B1's Cylinder of Verticality meaning that if a Foul is to be charged it should be charged to A1.

We have all seen videos and have officiated games where B1 has a LGP against A1 and A1 breaches B1's Cylinder of Verticality. The contact looks minimal and yet B1 falls backwards even falling to the Floor sometimes. Many people describe B1 as "flopping". Who knows for sure if B1 over acted from A1's contact? Whether or not B1 is guilty or not of overacting he/she cannot be charged with any type of Foul (Personal or Technical) because B1 was in a LGP when A1 breached B1's Cylinder of Verticality.

When it comes to faking being fouled. I officiated H.S. soccer for 14 years. Basketball players are not the actors that soccer players are.

I officiated basketball for 46 years and have watched Mark, Jr. officiate basketball for another 5 years and I cannot remember ever seeing a basketball player fake being fouled.

MTD, Sr.

As Elusive As the Multiple Foul ...
 

Since the mid-1960s, I've been playing, observing, coaching, and officiating basketball games, and I've never, ever, observed a player be charged with a technical foul for faking being fouled.

If a player in the forest fakes being fouled, and is not charged with a technical foul for faking being fouled, does he make a sound?

I have given those technical fouls before when it is an obvious case of faking.

When In Rome ...
 

Fouls plural? Wow! Must be a local Maryland, D.C., Virginia thing.

I don't disagree with that rules logic but the coach validation didn't provide confirmation for my decision. I'll admit that it was a poor call to make in hindsight...where the 2 pts was penalty enough for the bad defense.
Better decision would've been to try talking to either of them first in attempt to curb the issue. I think that too many people just continue with no calls and allow it to happen rather than addressing the issue in teachable moments so it doesn't become a problem down the line.

Better Be Careful ...
 

While I have never pulled the pin on a technical foul, nor have I ever observed the pin being pulled, I have orally warned a few players over the years, "You know it's technical foul for faking a foul, better be careful".

I think this is a good use of the tool we're provided. Being able to warn with the technical, rather than ever applying it. I think if you've done everything you can do and there comes a time to make that decision, then you're backed up by the rules....but using it more as a "scare-tactic" so to speak, may serve better in the long run and be a more useful process.

This was more along the lines of my thread OP.
How much shoulder contact from OIC constitutes a charge call if you can't call block? I think it's tough to say on paper (forum) and more about your perception of advantage via contact on the court throughout the game.

1) Has B1 Obtained (NFHS and NCAA Women's)/Established (NCAA Men's and FIBA) LGP? If YES, go to (2) and if NO, go to (4).

2) Was the contact between A1 and B1 within B1's Cylinder of Verticality? If yes, to (3).

3) PF by A1 against B1.

4) PF by B1 against A1.

It does not get any easier than that.

MTD, Sr.

Sometimes you just have to referee. Not all plays are alike or have the same response. You will never find a "one size fits all" application.

Peace

On paper, the Browns were the best team in the AFC North!

Through all my conversations and conflicting views on the subject, I've ended up exactly there.
I think sometimes we run out of things to discuss and begin to overthink and over analyze things, when it's just best to keep it simple most nights.

I will leave out any discussion of flop/faking fouled/selling calls as that is a whole can of words that I've got some strong feelings about - beyond you shouldn't call a block because a kid falls and you don't like it. You call a block if its a blocking foul, a charge if its a charging foul.

Focusing on the initial post.

Issue with a lot of games and officials tends to be on driving contact where 1 or both players is displaced/knocked down etc (visibly disrupted) officials often seem to feel like for game control reasons they need a whistle.

IMO if a player has legal guarding position but the offense changes position and contact happens in a way that the defense is not clearly disadvantaged or displaced its not a charge. If the offense is initiating the contact and the defense is legal but the only person impacted is the flailing/off balance offense I'm good with no calls.

Full disclosure I am much more comfortable with multiple bodies on the ground and no air in whistle than a lot of my colleagues.

I am a life long Browns fan; considerably longer than anyone else in this Forum. And NO! The Browns, on paper, were not the best team in the AFC North: The Bengals and Steelers were and they made the playoffs, not the Browns. I will not critize Mayfield's (or any Brown's player's effort) on the field but he is just a better than average CFL quarterback. We have not had a playoff caliber QB since Brian Sipe and Berner Kosar (Boardman Twp. native; large suburban towship on the south side of Youngstown and alumus, along with my sister of the University of Miami).

MTD, Sr.


P.S. That last time that the Browns had a good draft was in 2014 when Sonny Weaver, Jr. was General Manager.

God's Gift To Football ...
 

Johnny Manziel?

interesting, here is what I would add that hasn't been said.

just because you have contact between a ball handler and a defender and somebody ends up on the ground doesn't necessarily mean you have a call. the old saying of basically 'if you have players on the court, you better have a whistle' isn't appropriate. So for example, a defender have the right to a spot on the floor, and isn't under obligation to move out of the way if a dribbler is coming at him. at the same time, if the ball handler gets his head and shoulders past the defender, you really shouldn't call a foul on him either. so don't call anything.

I got hired into collegiate officiating by being questioned about such a non-call by the group of senior officials in the dead ball huddle of a camp game, explaining why I didn't have a call despite the old wives tale mentioned above, was reported to the head of officials because a female referee was involved as one of the clinicians and it was construed as me being disrespectful with her in attendance (apparently I don't discriminate), and when I got in front of the head, he was impressed with my explanation and balls to lay it out in front of the older officials. best thing that ever happened to me.

secondly, I think if a defender 'guesses' right in terms of a drivers change of direction in a Euro step move, etc, and takes the blow, he's going to likely get the benefit of the doubt from me and a charge call. Seems like I see quite a few plays take place where that isn't the case.

Charges taken by defenders, particularly secondary, are great team defense and one of the aspects that make the game so great, help on defense. the game wouldn't be the same without it. you have drivers these days that are as shifty and quick as running backs and creating a lot of the contact themselves. the rules of the game are great in that they reward position and penalize displacement, most prominently in this b/c play.

Don't even think about getting me started on Johnny Maziel!

MTD, Sr.


P.S. That last time that the Browns had a good draft was in 2014 when Sonny Weaver, Jr. was General Manager.

challenge
 

I'm dropping the red flag on that Mark:) Birthdate?

Isn't Mark Padgett still on the site? Might have the other Mark beat.

Peace

Nov. 09, 1951

MTD, Sr.


P.S. Do you agree with me that the Browns last great draft was in 2014 when Sonny Weaver, Jr. was the General Manager?

Jeff:

I am pretty sure that Mark was born before me, but I think that he is no longer with us. I know that he had been living in a nursing home after he had a heart attack.

MTD, Sr.

Is there any way we can confirm this? I did not want to assume that was the case.

Peace

April 20, 1949 here. Well, Draft Day 2014 was pretty much a box office failure.

Sad, But True ...
 

I tried emailing him (real email) a few times, with no response.

Now, how will young'uns learn the First Rule of Officiating?

1a) Let me address billyu2 and Sonny Weaver, Jr. I bow you your three years seniority. But you still have to admit that Sonny did have a better draft than recent Browns drafts. My birth hometown is Linwood, Kansas, my mom's hometown, but my dad's hometown is Youngstown, Ohio and we moved back to Youngstown when I was only one year old. Youngstown Liberty H.S., Class of 1969, and Youngstown State, Class of 1980.

1b) billyu2: For us that live (I live in my better half's hometown of Toledo: Go Mud Hens!) Youngstown the Browns-Steelers rivalry for some families is a civil war, and mine was no different. I am a life long Browns fan and my sister (younger) is a life long Steelers fan. She did not change allegiance even when the Browns drafted Kosar out of U of Miami (where she graduated in 1977 and played golf on the women's team there for four years.

2) Mark Padgett is alive and well and is 73 years old. He indeed did have a heart attack and is living Cedar Sini Park Senior Living (https://cedarsinaipark.org/senior-ca...itzer-manor-2/) in Portland, Oregon. He is 73 years old. Here is an article about him from October 19, 2019: https://orjewishlife.com/mark-padget...-and-politics/

MTD, Sr.

Oy Vey ...
 

Mark Padgett was proud of his Jewish heritage, but it was a non-kosher pig's heart valve transplant that saved his life.

He didn't eat the pig. Pigs are not lawful to eat for Jews, but that does not forbid their organs being used for transplants, unless one can bring up a decision by an Orthodox Jewish dayan mentioning that.

With regards to the OP, I have a flop on the offensive player. He tried to fool me into calling a foul on the defender by unnaturally falling away, so he gets called for faking being fouled. NFHS would be a technical foul (under the current rules), NCAA-M would be either a flop warning (if the 1st offense by his team) or a Class B technical foul. Any other level, he's getting a technical foul, and if applicable, a fine. Such plays have no place in basketball.

Guilt ...
 

Mark Padgett joked that he had to check with his rabbi before the life saving surgery, and even after getting his rabbi's approval, he joked that he still felt guilty. One thing that we Irish Catholics share with our Jewish bothers and sisters is guilt.