Interesting Play

bob jenkins

Sharpshooternes wrote
We were debating this tonight. How do you judge rolling over either from the stomach or the back? Is it from stomach to back or back to stomach that is illegal? To the side? So many degrees? We've read and found all of the rules and case book plays previously mentioned but can't conclude about the rolling over part.

It's not defined in the books or interps.

BillyMac

Sharpshooternes wrote
How do you judge rolling over either from the stomach or the back? Is it from stomach to back or back to stomach that is illegal? To the side? So many degrees? We've read and found all of the rules and case book plays previously mentioned but can't conclude about the rolling over part.

BillyMac wrote
What does "roll over" mean? 90 degrees? 180 degrees? 360 degrees? It's a good thing that I carry a protector with the extra whistle in my pocket.

BillyMac

bob jenkins wrote
It's not defined in the books or interps.

... and Funk and Wagnalls weren't very helpful: To turn around, or partly turn around.

Yeah. Thank you Funk. Thank you Wagnalls. For nothing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_BaJEry-fM

Kansas Ref

Well regarding whether or not a travel occurs is left to the sagacity of the referee who has primary coverage of the play.

BillyMac

Kansas Ref wrote
Well regarding whether or not a travel occurs is left to the sagacity of the referee who has primary coverage of the play.

Or the umpire, or the other umpire.

Sagacity?

“Don't use a five-dollar word when a fifty-cent word will do.” (Mark Twain)

Samuel Clemens used to live right up the street from me.

I mean, from where I live now.

I'm not that old, but Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. is.

crosscountry55

Kansas Ref…..ignore BillyMac’s critique. I, for one, appreciate the profundity of your word selection.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Camron Rust

Sharpshooternes wrote
We were debating this tonight. How do you judge rolling over either from the stomach or the back? Is it from stomach to back or back to stomach that is illegal? To the side? So many degrees? We've read and found all of the rules and case book plays previously mentioned but can't conclude about the rolling over part.

It isn't defined, but I'm OK with a player settling from this/her side to back or stomach....about a 1/4 turn. But, I'm not OK with going from left side to right side...anything nearing 180degrees is, to me, turning over.

BillyMac

crosscountry55 wrote
Kansas Ref…..ignore BillyMac’s critique. I, for one, appreciate the profundity of your word selection.

Already sent Kansas Ref a personal message saying the same.

I actually used the word "musings" for the first time in my life on the Forum yesterday. Had to double check the spelling and to make sure it meant what I wanted it to mean. I did not do very well on the vocabulary part of my high school SAT. My English teacher, Mr. Baumgartner, was very disappointed.

Profundity? Really?

Mike Goodwin

Sagacious: definition 2 obsolete : keen in sense perception. [merriam-webster.com, accessed 12/29/21]

BillyMac

Mike Goodwin wrote
Sagacious: definition 2 obsolete : keen in sense perception. [merriam-webster.com, accessed 12/29/21]

Is Mike Goodwin implying that Kansas Ref is obsolete?

Mike Goodwin

BillyMac wrote
Is Mike Goodwin implying that Kansas Ref is obsolete?

Nope. Just the word.

BillyMac

Mike Goodwin wrote
Nope. Just the word.

You're right. The only obsolete Forum member is Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Remington

Here is the reply we received from the NFHS…

I had taken some time away from email and am now catching up, so I apologize for my delayed response. My interpretation of this video based on the rule/case play is that this a legal play.

The player gains control on the floor and begins her dribble from the floor which the Case Play 4.44.5B illustrates as a legal play. Rule 4-44-5b is addressing a travel in which a player stands without dribbling either holding her setting the ball down to stand up. Both of these situations would be a travel.

I also forwarded the video to Fran Martin for her thoughts and copied her on this response.

Let me know if you have any additional questions.

Happy holidays!
Lindsey

Lindsey M. Atkinson, CIC, RAA
Director of Sports | Communications Associate

P: (317) 822-5730
A: PO Box 690 | Indianapolis, IN 46206
W: www.NFHS.org | www.NFHSLearn.com | www.NFHSNetwork.com
E: latkinson@nfhs.org

crosscountry55

Fran Martin. There’s a familiar name. I officiated one season in eastern Kansas eight years ago and I still vividly remember her annual rules seminar (she drove in from Topeka to give it….you know, like before Zoom was a thing).

She was already a legend in KS back then. I’m not surprised she’s now the national rules committee chair.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

BillyMac

Remington wrote
My interpretation of this video based on the rule/case play is that this a legal play. The player gains control on the floor and begins her dribble from the floor which the Case Play 4.44.5B illustrates as a legal play. Rule 4-44-5b is addressing a travel in which a player stands without dribbling either holding her setting the ball down to stand up. Both of these situations would be a travel. Lindsey M. Atkinson, NFHS

Thanks Remington. Straight from the horses's mouth. I could disagree with her, but its pretty futile to disagree with the Grand Poobah. No, "Yes, buts ..." from me. Learned not to do that that over forty years of officiating.

thumpferee

Remington wrote
Here is the reply we received from the NFHS…

I had taken some time away from email and am now catching up, so I apologize for my delayed response. My interpretation of this video based on the rule/case play is that this a legal play.

The player gains control on the floor and begins her dribble from the floor which the Case Play 4.44.5B illustrates as a legal play. Rule 4-44-5b is addressing a travel in which a player stands without dribbling either holding her setting the ball down to stand up. Both of these situations would be a travel.

I also forwarded the video to Fran Martin for her thoughts and copied her on this response.

Let me know if you have any additional questions.

Happy holidays!
Lindsey

Lindsey M. Atkinson, CIC, RAA
Director of Sports | Communications Associate

P: (317) 822-5730
A: PO Box 690 | Indianapolis, IN 46206
W: www.NFHS.org | www.NFHSLearn.com | www.NFHSNetwork.com
E: latkinson@nfhs.org

I would like to know what question was posed because I see no mention of the legality of the play in question. We know you can start a dribble while laying on the floor. We also know you can set the ball down and get up, which is stated as a violation above.

If going to the knees were legal, why wouldn't they specify it as they did with, while on your back you can sit up.?

An official interp would be nice. This one isn't IMO

Mike Goodwin

thumpferee wrote
If going to the knees were legal, why wouldn't they specify it as they did with, while on your back you can sit up.?

An official interp would be nice. This one isn't IMO

Agreed; 100%.

BillyMac

thumpferee wrote
I would like to know what question was posed because I see no mention of the legality of the play in question. We know you can start a dribble while laying on the floor. We also know you can set the ball down and get up, which is stated as a violation above. If going to the knees were legal, why wouldn't they specify it as they did with, while on your back you can sit up? An official interp would be nice. This one isn't ...

I agree with thumpferee's criticism (not just because I was wrong). It almost sounds like Lindsey Atkinson didn't put much thought and effort in her response.

However, not an official interpretation?

Lindsey Atkinson is the NFHS basketball rules editor. Can't be anybody, or anything, more official than that.

“He's bona fide. What are you?” (Penny Wharvey McGill, Oh Brother Where Art Thou)

BillyMac

thumpferee wrote
We know you can start a dribble while laying on the floor. We also know you can set the ball down and get up, which is stated as a violation above ...

Setting the ball down on the floor and getting up is legal as long as one doesn't subsequently touch the ball? Correct?

4.44.5 SITUATION B: A1 dives for a loose ball and slides after gaining control. A1 is in a position either on his/her back or stomach. What can A1 do without violating? RULING: A1 may pass, shoot, start a dribble or request a time-out ... It is also traveling if A1 puts the ball on the floor, then rises and is first to touch the ball.

Mike Goodwin

BillyMac wrote
Setting the ball down on the floor and getting up is legal as long as one doesn't subsequently touch the ball? Correct?

That's how I would interpret and apply that case book play, if it ever happens in my game (probability of occurring: super low. But I'll be ready, just the same).

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