The Most Misunderstood NFHS Basketball Rules ...

BillyMac

Thanks for your input Raymond. It's greatly appreciated.

BillyMac wrote
When an airborne shooter fumbles the ball (while still in the air) instead of releasing the ball on a try, unintentionally drops the ball, and then returns to the floor and secures possession of the ball, it’s ...

Raymond wrote
The significance of being able to recover a fumbled ball is that it's not considered a dribble, therefore you wouldn't be committing an illegal dribble. You can however fumble ball and commit a travel if you jump in the air, fumble the ball, and then retrieve the ball.

Makes sense. But doesn't one have to be holding a ball at the same time one illegally moves a pivot foot to travel?

Raymond wrote
There is a difference between jumping in the air and purposely dropping the ball and jumping in the air and fumbling the ball.

While the intent is certainly different, wouldn't you say that both of these are travel violations (based on your post above)?

Still waiting for that ah-ha moment that I almost always get from Raymond, and others, when I'm stymied. Not quite there.

Raymond

Do whatever you can explain.

I know anything I do, I can explain to a coach or my supervisors.

I don't worry about all these debates.

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JRutledge

BillyMac wrote
While the intent is certainly different, wouldn't you say that both of these are travel violations (based on your post above)?

Why would they be the same when one is literally done on purpose and the other is not? That is like saying any touching or tapping of the ball would be the same as a dribble even though you did not have control of the ball?

Peace

BillyMac

Raymond wrote
Do whatever you can explain.

My misunderstood rules list shouldn't have rules listed that I misunderstand.

The situation will remain deleted (for now).

BillyMac wrote
When an airborne shooter fumbles the ball (while still in the air) instead of releasing the ball on a try, unintentionally drops the ball, and then returns to the floor and secures possession of the ball, it’s ...

BillyMac wrote
In a real game, I'm allowing the fumble to be picked up ...

BillyMac wrote
I'm basing this on two old adages, one can always pick up a fumble, and one has to be holding the ball to travel.

BryanV21

Dammit. That play is going to happen on Friday and I'm going to let it go, and I won't know if I did the right thing or not.

Oh well, it'll fit in with the other bad calls I make throughout the night. [emoji6]

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BillyMac

JRutledge wrote
Why would they be the same when one is literally done on purpose and the other is not?

I'm not saying this, I believe that Raymond is saying this.

In my opinion, an airborne player, seeing that his shot will probably be blocked, and dropping the ball on purpose and picking it up is a travel; while an airborne player fumbling the ball unintentionally can legally pick it up.

BryanV21

BillyMac wrote
I'm not saying this, I believe that Raymond is saying this.

In my opinion, a airborne player, seeing that his shot will probably be blocked, and dropping the ball on purpose and picking it up is a travel; while an airborne player fumbling the ball unintentionally can legally pick it up.

This is what I'm calling unless there's clear information against it.

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BillyMac

BryanV21 wrote
Dammit. That play is going to happen on Friday and I'm going to let it go, and I won't know if I did the right thing or not.

Agree. For me it's no longer about getting the interpretation correct on my list, but it's now about getting the interpretation correct when it happens in my game.

JRutledge

BillyMac wrote
I'm not saying this, I believe that Raymond is saying this.

In my opinion, a airborne player, seeing that his shot will probably be blocked, and dropping the ball on purpose and picking it up is a travel; while an airborne player fumbling the ball unintentionally can legally pick it up.

My contention is that you do not have to pick up this part at all. If you have not started a dribble, this is illegal the minute you release the ball. If a player did a split foot travel we would not wait until they picked up the ball again.

Peace

BillyMac

BillyMac wrote
In my opinion, a airborne player, seeing that his shot will probably be blocked, and dropping the ball on purpose and picking it up is a travel; while an airborne player fumbling the ball unintentionally can legally pick it up.

BryanV21 wrote
This is what I'm calling unless there's clear information against it.

Don't underestimate the rules knowledge and experience of Raymond and Camron Rust. It would be a big mistake to ignore either of them.

BryanV21

BillyMac wrote
Don't underestimate the rules knowledge and experience of Raymond and Camron Rust.

It has nothing to do with that, it goes to the fact I can't point to a case play or rule to PROVE it to a coach.

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BillyMac

JRutledge wrote
My contention is that you do not have to pick up this part at all. If you have not started a dribble, this is illegal the minute you release the ball.

By a literal interpretation of the rule, JRutledge is 100% correct. If one deems it to be the start of a dribble, it is a dribble. If one deems it to be the start of a bounce pass, it is a pass.

However, I believe that both JRutledge and I are on the same page in terms of the illegality of dropping the ball intentionally, and the legality of unintentionally fumbling the ball and recovering it.

BillyMac

BryanV21 wrote
It has nothing to do with that, it goes to the fact I can't point to a case play or rule to PROVE it to a coach.

You've got proof either way.

Illegal: He moved his pivot foot before starting a dribble.

Legal: One can always pick up a fumble.

BryanV21

BillyMac wrote
You've got proof either way.

Illegal: He moved his pivot foot before starting a dribble.

Legal: One can always pick up a fumble.

So why is the play under question?

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BillyMac

BryanV21 wrote
So why is the play under question?

Because we have two different interpretations.

BillyMac wrote
When an airborne shooter fumbles the ball (while still in the air) instead of releasing the ball on a try, unintentionally drops the ball, and then returns to the floor and secures possession of the ball, it’s ...

BillyMac wrote
Illegal: He moved his pivot foot before starting a dribble.

Legal: One can always pick up a fumble.

BryanV21

BillyMac wrote
Because we have two different interpretations.

And from respected officials. That's my issue.

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BillyMac

BryanV21 wrote
And from respected officials.

When both Raymond and Camron Rust disagree with me, I have to take pause.

BillyMac

JRutledge wrote
If a player did a split foot travel we would not wait until they picked up the ball again.

Note: Took me some time to figure out what a split foot travel is, as we have never used that term here in my little corner of Connecticut.

Again, JRutledge is 100% correct in his literal interpretation of the rule. By the time the play registers in my mind and I sound my whistle the ball has usually bounced off the floor and back into the player's hand. Could it have been the start of a bounce pass, sure, I guess, but JRutledge is right in his contention that experienced officials have enough good judgment to differentiate between the start of a bounce pass and the start of a dribble. Context is everything. If I'm unsure, I can wait a second and be sure.

Raymond

There are gaps and blind spots in the rules where differing interpretations can be justified.

Knowing how to explain one's particular interpretation requires communication skills and knowledge of the rule & case books.

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BillyMac

Raymond wrote
There are gaps and blind spots in the rules where differing interpretations can be justified.

Is Raymond saying that this situation may be one of those blind spots?

BillyMac wrote
When an airborne shooter fumbles the ball (while still in the air) instead of releasing the ball on a try, unintentionally drops the ball, and then returns to the floor and secures possession of the ball, it’s ...

... with differing evidence used to show that this situation could be legal, or illegal.

If that's what he is saying, then I can agree with him, and this controversial situation will remain off of my list.

Stupid NFHS.

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