For NCAA Officials Only ...
 

I'm not an NCAA official, so I don't have a dog in this fight, but I thought that you college guys would be interested in this contradictory situation that appeared in a recent IAABO Inside The Lines publication.

I'm sure that most of the knowledgeable college guys we see on the Forum already know about this shot clock rule contradiction, and know how to properly handle it, but in case one hasn't, or doesn't, here it is:

Disclaimer: Not sure if this is an NCAA interpretation, or an IAABO interpretation.

Team A has the ball in their back court for a throw in. The Game Clock is at 29 seconds. The Shot Clock is off. Thrower-In A3 throws the ball to A4 in the front court. B3 fouls A4. The game clock reads 26 seconds. Team A is not in the bonus. Team A will receive the ball at one of the four spots and the Shot Clock will be turned back on. True or false?

The correct answer is False.

Unfortunately, we have two rules that are contradicting in this play:

1. Rule 2-11.2 states that the shot-clock operator “shall use the shot clock for the entire game, including extra periods, except where there is less time remaining on the game clock than on the shot clock, in which case the shot clock shall be turned off.”

2. Rule 2-11.6.c.1 states that the shot clock operator shall, “Reset' the shot clock “to 20 seconds or the time remaining (whichever is greater)when the following occurs:
1. A personal or technical foul is assessed to the defensive team and the ball is to be inbounded in the front court;”

The application of Rule 2-11.2 is correct. Turn the shot clock off. Otherwise, Team A would never get their full 30 seconds that they are entitled to by rule. See Rule 2-11.8 for exceptions to this rule that are listed in Rule 2-11.6.d.

I don't think the rules are contradictory -- the "whichever is greater" just includes the time on the game clock (26 seconds n this instance).

You can have (at least in NCAAW) a situation where the shot clock is turned off and then turned back on again.

Updated Disclaimer ...
 

Disclaimer Update: Not sure if this is an NCAAM interpretation, an NCAAW interpretation, or just a worthless IAABO interpretation.

Turned Off ...
 

I see your point, and understand it, and it's foolish for me to comment on shot clock issues (I know more about quantum physics than I do about shot clocks), but the contradictory part is "the shot-clock operator shall use the shot clock for the entire game, including extra periods, except where there is less time remaining on the game clock than on the shot clock, in which case the shot clock shall be turned off” because it appears that shot clock does not remain "turned off".

However, by reading it in a certain way, I can see where it can appear to be non-contradictory.

"turned off" and "remains off" are not synonymous.

A gets the ball with 29 seconds left. Shot clock it turned off. A attempts a try that hits the rim and A gets a rebound with 25 seconds left -- shot clock it tuned back on and is set to 20 seconds.

We (NCAA-M) have no problems with the rule. We know the shot may be turned back on. We are familiar with those situations.

Do you really think an NCAA official is coming here to find that out for the first time? Do you think there are peculiar shot clock situations that aren't addressed in the pregame or in the preseason clinics? If an NCAA official is confused about a rule or interpretation and needs help, there are avenues in place for that, including directly contacting JD Collins.

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Not Synonymous ...
 

Agree.

Not Meant To Be Educational ...
 

Was not meant to be educational in any way. Just thought that those with an interest in shot clock rules, especially since high school shot clocks will be coming to some states soon, with rules in one form or another, would be interested in this.

Also thought that those of you that work college games would have some interesting comments on this, which bob jenkins and Raymond did.

Based on comments by bob jenkins and Raymond, this appears not to be an NCAA (M or W) interpretation, it appears to be just an IAABO interpretation, and it seems to be wrong.

Another (usually rare) case of IAABO not staying in its lane and interpreting instead of teaching (as happened when they jumped the gun the last time the NFHS switched from hit to release on free throws).

The answer to the question was correct.

Shot clocks are set/reset to only 30 or 20 seconds, or shot clocks are left where they are. They are not turned back on and set to 26 seconds.



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Confused In Connecticut ...
 

I thought that both bob jenkins and Raymond said to turn the shot clock back on?

... and the Shot Clock will be turned back on. True or false? The correct answer is False.

Wouldn't comments by bob jenkins and Raymond make this true, i.e., turn the shot clock back on.

Billy,

You spend more time trying to dissect the things you will never do or apply in your career or life. The rule is simple and those that apply them know how to do this or we would not be there. Or we will not be there very long. IJS.

Peace

Again: Shot clocks are set/reset to only 30 or 20 seconds, or shot clocks are left where they are. They are not turned back on and set to 26 seconds.

We (NCAA Officials) are not confused.

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26 Seconds ???
 

I don't see that stated in the situation given. It just says to turn the shot clock back on after being off. Wouldn't the shot clock have to be "on" to set it to 20 seconds?

I won't speak for Raymond, but your interpretation of my comments is what is wrong.

I agree with the IAABO answer to the situation given

Again: We (NCAA Officials) are not confused.

The rule has been explained to you.

Go back and cobble together the written rules and the responses Bob and I provided.

Leave out the BillyMac assumptions and "reading into".

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Something Is Rotten In The State Of Denmark ...
 

Right now Connecticut prep schools use NCAA shot clock rules. We may be using a high school shot clock (with rules to be determined) next year in Connecticut. So I have a certain degree of curiosity about shot clocks.

Which is why this situation in the IAABO Inside The Lines bulletin caught my attention and then I posted the situation.

I figured that the college guys would just say, "Yeah, that's correct, and we are aware of the contradictory language", but that didn't happen, and posts were made that I replied to, even though I was way out of my league, but I can read English, and I believe that something smells fishy about the situation answer based on the college experts (not sarcastic) on this thread.

IAABO Is Correct ...
 

Gotta go with the experts. I'd be foolish not to.

So, false is correct.

Still confused by the IAABO answer wording (true or false), but who cares? Play on.

I should have stuck to only reading the NFHS section of the IAABO Inside The Lines bulletin, as I usually do.

I always avoid reading the FIBA section of the bulletin, I should probably also stay away from the NCAAM, and NCAAW, sections as well, staying in my lane.

There ARE situations where the shot clock is turned back on (and set to 20). The OP is NOT one of those. Leave the shot clock off in the OP. So FALSE is correct.

Always Listen To bob ...
 

Ruling: ... Turn the shot clock off. Otherwise, Team A would never get their full 30 seconds that they are entitled to by rule.

Thank you.

That's what I thought at first but became distracted as the thread progressed (posts alluding to the shot clock being turned back on and set to 20 seconds).

No need for any further explanation (there are situations where the shot clock is turned back on and set to 20), it would probably confuse me more, and like JRutledge alluded to, since NCAA shot clocks are only used in Connecticut private prep school varsity games, and I only "limp" through subvarsity (mostly middle school and freshman) games at this point in my career, and since Connecticut public and Catholic schools currently don't use shot clocks (nor do we know the exact shot clock rules these schools will use in the future, if there is a future), there is no pressing need for me to fully understand NCAA shot clock rules.

Next time I have an NCAA shot clock rule question about a college game that I watch on television, or see live, I'll come to you college guys for an answer.

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Billy, let's see if we can give you some insight into the rule:

With 29 seconds left in the first half Team B steals the ball in it's back court. The shot clock is turned off because we're under 30 seconds:

1) At the 26 second mark, while still in the back court B2 commits a travel.

Team A now has a front court throw-in at one of the four designated spots, what should be done with the shot clock?

2) At the 26 second mark, after advancing to the front court B2 commits a travel.

Team A now has a back court throw-in at a designated spot nearest the violation, what should be done with the shot clock?

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Curiosity Piqued ...
 

Thanks for reminding me just how much I don't know about NCAA shot clock rules. My fat, dumb, and happy "I don't know what I don't know" just turned into an embarrassing "I don't know".

But you've got my curiosity piqued. Answers with short explanations would be appreciated when you have a few extra minutes.

It's Complicated ...
 

Common sense tells me that when control switches from one team to another (turnover) that team now in control should have the full thirty seconds (if there's that much time left in the period) to hit the rim with a shot.

That's based my common sense, and not based on my knowledge of NCAA shot clock rules, which I'm pretty sure are much more complicated than that.

In 1, set the shot clock to 20 seconds. In 2, the shot clock remains off. The reasoning behind that is that 30 seconds include both the 10 seconds to cross from the backcourt to the frontcourt and 20 seconds to get a shot off while in the frontcourt.

In situation 1, since A receives the ball in the frontcourt, they do not need the additional 10 seconds to cross the division line. However, they do need time to cross the division line in 2. Because the full reset causes the shot clock to be greater than the game clock, the shot clock is turned off.

OK, that would have been nice to know, but my point stands. You worry about things that those are not having an issue with. If the shot clock is set to 20 seconds after a stoppage of play where the team gets shot clock is under the game clock time, then the shot clock should be on. If the time is under 20 (or 30) seconds, it does not matter now, does it? Again, not that hard to understand unless you are really trying to not understand.

Peace

Are you sure? What if the offense throws the ball to the BC? They still could have a 10-second count. ;)

Peace

They'll still have the count. However, since they have frontcourt possession already, they do not need the extra 10 seconds.

It's not FC possession, it's a FC adjacent throw-in. The thrower-in has neither back court nor front court status while the ball is at their disposal.

Nuances ...
 

The NCAA seems to have many nuances regarding shot clock rules that appear to go beyond simply giving a team about a half a minute to hit the rim after a change of possession. Frontcourt or backcourt. Less time in period than on shot clock. Sometimes resets to 20 seconds. Kicking or punching violations. Legally touched inbounds. Missed free throw is controlled. Held ball (not the same when offensive or defensive team has alternating possession arrow).

As a non-college official, these are the nuances that I'm aware of (yet may not fully understand). There are probably more. Makes me hope that if Connecticut goes to a high school shot clock that the shot clock rules are as simple as possible.

I'm a pretty good rules guy, so if Connecticut goes to "complex" (NCAA-type) high school shot clock rules I'm sure that I will be able to study and fully understand them, but we've got a few outstanding (great physical shape, understand the game, understand advantage and disadvantage, great game management and people skills, get calls right almost every call, great partners, etc.) varsity guys who are not necessarily great "rules" guys, who may struggle.

And, of course, we've got guys at the table at some high schools who aren't the sharpest tools in the shed.

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All that stuff you listed are reasons why I'm glad my state has not gone to a shot clock for HS. The NFHS is not a stellar rules-writing organization, there would be a lot of confusion; that's not even taking into consideration the competency of table crews or rules discipline of fellow officials.

Confused ...
 

The NFHS has already demonstrated their confusion by contradictory rules regarding ten second violations. The NFHS shot clock rule says to use the shot clock to time ten seconds (starts on a touch, with no visual count), yet the NFHS rule regarding ten second violations "still" says to start ten seconds on control, apparently leaving the "final" decision up to each individual state as to how to properly handle this apparent contradiction, especially when an inbounds pass in the backcourt is defected around like a ping pong ball before control, and/or when the shot clock is turned off with less than 35 seconds in the period (visual count).

Dissenting Opinion ...
 

While I agree with you (or maybe I just don't like change), we've got guys here on the Forum who love their high school shot clock and it's application in their states. I'm sure that they will be moseying along shortly to offer dissenting opinions.

You're right. However, the most likely possibility is that the ball will have frontcourt status following the throw-in, hence the reduced shot clock time. This is why NBA and FIBA do not allow a throw-in from the frontcourt to enter the backcourt until the last 2 minutes of the 4th quarter and the last 2 minutes of overtime, even though the ball technically does not have frontcourt status.

I just want you to make sure you're using the proper terms. The reason for it being at 20 or 30 is based on the throw-in spot, not front court or back court status of the ball.

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I do not need a diatribe. What rule has the NF states that they will be using 10 seconds on the shot clock as the backcourt count? I have yet to see them even talk about multiple things as it relates to their usage of the shot clock. Certainly have not seen anything that addressed offensive rebounds, turnovers, or even where you rule a shot clock violation specifics. I am sure they will address this, but I am assuming all they did was allow a shot clock but not deal with what rules apply. And certainly not something that automatically adopts other rules from other levels.

Peace

NFHS Shot Clock Guidelines ...
 

NFHS SHOT CLOCK
STATE ASSOCIATION ADOPTION GUIDELINES
In accordance with Rule 2-14, each state association may adopt a procedure by which it implements a 35-second shot clock effective
with the 2022-23 season. The following are the guidelines to be implemented for those states choosing to adopt the shot clock.

SHOT CLOCK DISPLAYS
1. A shot clock is one of the two official visible timepieces – one at each end of the court.
2. The shot clocks shall be recessed and mounted on the backboard supports behind each backboard.
3. An alternate-timing device or procedure shall be available when a visible shot clock malfunctions.
4. LED lights located around the shot clock may be used, but the lights shall only be activated for a shot clock violation.
5. Nothing shall be attached to the mounting mechanisms of the shot clock that affects the visibility of the shot clock.

GAME AND TABLE OFFICIALS
A shot clock operator will be located at the scorer’s and timer’s table. It is recommended that the timer and shot clock operator be
seated next to each other.

OFFICIALS’ GENERAL DUTIES
1. Use the shot clock to administer the 10-second backcourt count (9-8). Use a silent, visible 10-second count when there is no
shot clock visible.
2. To indicate a shot clock violation, the official will give the stop clock signal followed by the tapping of the head and give a directional signal.
3. To indicate a shot clock reset, the official will use a rolling motion of a pointed index finger above the head.

THE SHOT CLOCK OPERATOR SHALL:
1. Use a 35-second shot clock in accordance with Rule 2-14.
2. Use the shot clock the entire game, including extra periods, except when there is less time remaining on the game clock than on
the shot clock or in cases where 5-5-3 NOTE has been implemented. In these cases, the shot clock shall be turned off.
3. Control a separate timing device with a horn that shall have a sound that is distinct and different from that of the game clock
horn.
4. Have an alternate-timing device or procedure available in the case of failure or lack of availability of the electronic clocks.

5. Start the shot clock when:
a. A player inbounds legally touches or is touched by the ball on a throw-in; or
b. A team initially gains control after a jump ball or unsuccessful try for goal; or
c. Control of a loose ball is gained after a jump ball; or
d. Unsuccessful try for goal.

6. Stop the timing device and reset to full amount:
a. When team control is again established after the team loses possession of the ball.
NOTE: The mere touching of the ball by an opponent does not start a new shot clock period with the same team remains in
control of the ball.
b. When any of the following occurs:
i. A single personal foul;
ii. A single technical foul assessed to the defensive team;
iii. During team control, a defensive player causes a held ball, and the alternating-possession arrow favors the defensive
team;
iv. When a try for goal strikes the ring or flange and then possession is gained by either team;
v. When a violation occurs;
vi. After a held ball occurs during a throw-in, and the alternating possession arrow favors the team that did not make the
throw-in;
vii. After a held ball occurs during after an unsuccessful try that does not contact the ring or flange, and the alternating-possession arrow favors the non-shooting team;
viii. After the ball goes out of bounds and was last touched simultaneously by two opponents, both of whom are either
inbounds or out of bounds or when there is doubt as to who last touched the ball and the possession arrow favors the
defensive team;
ix. When there is an inadvertent whistle and there was no player or team control at the time of the whistle;

7. Stop the timing device and continue time without a reset when play begins under the following circumstances:
a. The ball is deflected out of bounds by a defensive player;
b. A player is injured or loses a contact lens;
c. A charged time-out has concluded;
d. During team control as defined in Rule 4-12-1, a defensive player causes a held ball, and the alternating-possession arrow
favors the offensive team;
e. After any double personal or technical fouls or simultaneous personal or technical fouls when there is team control unless
the penalty for the foul results in a change of possession;
f. After an inadvertent whistle when there is team control;
g. After any technical foul(s) is assessed to a team in control of the ball, or to the team entitled to the ball before it is at the
disposal of the thrower-in, or to bench personnel;
h. After a held ball occurs during a throw-in, and the alternating-possession arrow favors the team that made the throw-in;
i. After a held ball occurs during after an unsuccessful try that does not contact the ring or flange, and the alternating possession arrow favors the shooting team;
j. After the ball goes out of bounds and was last touched simultaneously by two opponents, both of whom are either inbounds
or out of bounds or when there is doubt as to who last touched the ball and the possession arrow favors the offensive team;
NOTE: The offensive team, upon regaining possession of the ball for the throw-in, shall have the unexpired time on the shot
clock to attempt a try.

8. Resetting the shot clock not to the full shot clock amount:
a. Reset the shot clock to 20 seconds when there is an intentionally kicked or fisted ball with less than 19 seconds on the shot
clock.
b. State associations may determine, if there are other instances where the clock is reset, but not to the full shot clock amount.

9. Sound the shot clock horn at the expiration of the shot clock period. This shot clock horn shall not stop play unless recognized
by an official’s whistle. When the shot clock indicates zeroes, the shot clock time has expired.
10. Turn off the shot clock when a reset situation occurs, and the game clock shows less time than that of a shot clock period.
11. Allow the timing device to continue during loose-ball situations when the offense retains control or when a field goal try is attempted at the wrong basket or when a field goal try has failed to hit the rim or flange.
12. Allow the game officials to make the final decision when there is doubt as to whether a score was made within the shot clock
period or whether a try for goal contacted the ring or flange.

TIMING ERRORS
1. The officials shall make the final decision when there is doubt as to whether a score was made within the shot clock period or
whether a try for goal contacted the ring or flange.
2. When an obvious mistake by the shot clock operator has occurred in failing to start, stop, set or reset the shot clock, or when a
shot clock has malfunctioned, the mistake or the malfunctioning problem may be corrected in the shot clock period in which it
occurred only when the official has definite information relative to the mistake or malfunctioning problem and the time involved.

SHOT CLOCK VIOLATION
1. A shot clock period is the period of time beginning when the ball is legally touched on a throw-in or when team control is established or re-established after loss of team control and the shot clock is properly started. The shot clock period ends when the
shot clock is properly started for the next shot clock period.
2. A shot clock try for field goal is defined as the ball having left the shooter’s hand(s) before the sounding of the shot clock horn
and then striking the ring or flange, or entering the basket.
3. The team in control must attempt a try for a field goal, within the 35-second shot clock period.
4. It is a violation when a try for field goal does not leave the shooter’s hand before the expiration of the allotted shot clock time (as
indicated by the sounding of the shot clock horn) or when it does leave the shooter’s hand before the expiration of the allotted
shot clock time and the try does not subsequently strike the ring or flange or enter the basket.

Link: https://www.nfhs.org/sports-resource...idelines-2021/

Where Were You On The Afternoon Of Saturday, July 17, 2021 ???
 

Remember this?

https://forum.officiating.com/basket...ml#post1043916

Struggling ...
 

State associations may determine, if there are other instances where the clock is reset, but not to the full shot clock amount.

This is the scary part. If Connecticut decides to go all-NCAA, full nine yards on us, I can foresee some high school table crews struggling (and maybe a few varsity officials).

https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.Z...=0&w=300&h=300

Good friend of mine worked DC Catholic League last night and said shot clock administration was horrible. Said there were over 10 times they had to fix the clock and there were conflicting rules posted.

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Shot Clock Administration ...
 

Conflicting rules can be easily taken care of by the state association.

The table crew is another story. Game clocks are very easy to administer. Turn off the game clock when one hears a whistle. Turning on the game clock only involves a few simple guidelines, with little rules understanding (missed free throw being the most difficult). Game clocks are always reset to 8:00 (rarely 4:00) during clock-stopped dead-balls. Most students, even middle school students, can correctly and successfully do it.

While I'm sure that some of the people that we currently have at the high school table could correctly and successfully handle a shot clock, I wouldn't bet my house that all of the people that we currently have at the high school table could correctly and successfully handle a shot clock.

Bottom line, just because current high school table crews can correctly and successfully handle a game clock, do not assume that all future high school table crews can correctly and successfully handle a shot clock.

I've seen this with my own eyes in Connecticut varsity private prep school games that I've worked with shot clocks.

If more states decide to use a shot clock, they better keep the guidelines as simple as possible, staying away from the more complex NCAA and NBA/WNBA rules.