jumper
 

Jump ball, blue jumper taps ball straight up. As ball comes down, blue jumper taps ball straight up again. As ball comes down blue jumper catches ball. Violation?

Yes -- for catching the jump ball. Even if blue just taps it again it's a violation.

Always Listen To bob ...
 

Agree.

6-3-7-C: Neither jumper must: Catch the ball before the jump ball ends.

6-3-8: The jump ball and the restrictions in 6-3-7 end when the touched ball contacts one of the eight non-jumpers, an official, the floor, a basket or backboard.

4-28-2: The jump ball begins when the ball leaves the official’s hand(s) and ends when the touched ball contacts a non-jumper, an official, the floor, a basket or backboard.

What Happens Next ???
 

No need to reset game clock here as the first touch was a legal touch (unlike a ball touched by a jumper on the way up).

White ball at spot closest to the violation.

Alternating possession arrow goes to Blue and is set when ball is at disposal of White for the throwin.

After his early afternoon nap, Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. will be moseying by to tell all of us how the alternating possession arrow throwin was handled back in ancient times when the alternating possession arrow was first invented.

Hint: Lose the BLANK, lose the BLANK.

Yes. Throw-in at the spot nearest to the violation, unless the ball is inbounded in the frontcourt under NCAAM or NCAAW rules. In that case, the nearest of 4 spots will be used. The shot clock will remain at 30 for NCAA play or 24 for NBA play, because a violation resets the shot clock to 20/14 or keeps the shot clock at the current value, whichever is greater. Since no team has control, the shot clock will not have started. Otherwise, the ball will go to White at the nearest spot.

Citation ...
 

4-3: Alternating-possession control is established and the initial direction of the possession arrow is set toward the opponent’s basket when:
ART. 3 The ball is placed at the disposal of the thrower after:
a. A violation during or following the jump before a player secures control.

Tip o' the hat to Raymond for reminding us of this a few weeks ago.

A violation for catching the jump ball is NOT one of the reasons for using one of the four designated spots in NCAAW rules.

NCAA-M:

That applies if the offensive team RETAINS possession following a defensive foul or violation in the front court or a defensive violation in the back court. If a team gains possession in their FC following a foul or violation, the shot clock is set to 20 seconds, if in the BC it is set to 30.


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Perplexed In Connecticut ...
 

Thanks for reminding me why I never wanted to understand NCAA basketball rules.

Also, rumor has it that Connecticut will go with a NFHS approved shot clock for all high school games (freshman, junior varsity, varsity) as early as next year. Some wanted it rushed as early as this year.

I'm perplexed.

Frugal principals, athletic directors, and coaches in Connecticut have stymied three person varsity (never even considering subvarsity) games for years, something that would really improve Connecticut high school basketball in every varsity game, yet the same principals, athletic directors, and coaches are jumping on the bandwagon for the chance to have high school shot clocks, something that would only improve a handful of games each season, and yet still be costly, originally for the equipment, and then ongoing for shot clock operators at the table.

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.H...=0&w=327&h=172

Off-topic and sure to be revisited in future threads, but I wholly agree with this.

In our state (VA) clinic this year, it was pointed out that average possession time was only 14 seconds. HS players don’t care about offensive sets, they just want to go score! Furthermore, coaches were evenly split on the shot clock from state survey data, so with no clear mandate, VA will not be adopting it anytime soon.

I think that’s the right approach. VA took the “coolness factor” and emotion out of the equation and ended up with a rational decision.


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If the schools create more responsibility for the officials by adding a shot clock, then the officials should seek greater compensation per game.

Same for NCAAW, except that kick, fist, thought the basket from below are the only violations to which this applies.

Oh, I Wonder, Wonder Who, Mmbadoo-Ooh, Who (The Monotones 1957) ...
 

I never realized it, but this may part of the equation. Probably shouldn't be, but it may be.

It's nowhere near to the level of an answer in search of a problem because there are certainly some valid reasons for shot clocks.

However, I wonder how often stakeholders in the game say, "Tonight's high school game could really use, and would be a lot better, with a shot clock".

Not as a general comment, but as a comment about that specific game with those two teams that night.

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.1...=0&w=300&h=300

That makes more sense. If in the frontcourt, White gets the ball with 20/14 seconds on the shot clock from one of the 4 designated spots (NCAAM) or at the nearest spot (NCAAW/NBA). If in the backcourt, White gets the ball at the nearest spot with the shot clock at 30/24.

That is NOT true in the OP ( a jump ball violation) for NCAAW

The shot clock only resets to 20 on an offensive rebound or foul/violation in the frontcourt under 20 in NCAAW. Are you saying that if the opponents get possession in the frontcourt under NCAAW rules, it is a 30-second reset?

I'm saying that in the OP the shot clock was never running -- it should still be at 30 (and if not, it's a timer's error). So, it will remain at 30 no matter whether B inbounds the ball adjacent to the front court or to the back court.

That's what I originally said. Since the shot clock never ran, it would make sense that the shot clock stays where it is at. I'll have to re-read both men's and women's rulebooks and see if Raymond is right as it specifically relates to the men's game. Stuff like this makes me wish that the men's and women's committees would get together and unify the shot clock rules. They already have the same rule for offensive rebounds and frontcourt fouls, so why not make everything else consistent.

NCAA-Men's:
RULE 2 / OFFICIALS AND THEIR DUTIES
Section 11. Duties of Shot-Clock Operator
The shot-clock operator shall:
Art. 6. Stopping and resetting the shot clock:
d. Reset to 20 seconds when the following occurs:
8. During a jump ball, one team causes the ball to be out of bounds and the other team is awarded the ball for a throw-in in the frontcourt.

Causing the ball to go OOB on the jump ball would mean the shot clock never started, yet we still set it to 20 seconds if the throw-in is adjacent to the FC.

Thanks -- that rule is NOT in the NCAAW book.

They are 2 separate entities. It doesn't matter if the rules are the same or not because there are Men's staffs and there Women's staffs. With the very rare exception, officials either work one side or the other. Those few who do work both sides don't do so for the same conference and they have put the burden upon themselves to master 2 sets of rules.

They tried that and it was a disaster. Women's basketball spent a lot of time trying to be relevant with different rules and wanted things to be done differently. Let us face it, women and men do not play basketball the same. One game is largely above the ring and the other is below the ring more than high school boys. So no you will not have the same committees when one sport makes over a billion dollars for their tournament and the other loses money every year in their tournament. The main reason for example Men's basketball does not go to quarters, because Men's basketball would lose a media timeout or two doing such a thing. The committees need to state separate so they can effectively address the trends in each game appropriately. I started working Women's college ball then turned to Men's college where I wanted to be. I never worked consistently both at the same time and am glad I did not have to. Hard enough to keep track of NF and NCAA Rules for one code. Just the same reason you do not see officials that get to the NBA go through the Men's college ranks as a standard.

Peace

It's illogical, but that's the rule that's there, so I'll enforce it that way if I work NCAA men's ball.

JRut, are you saying that NBA officials, both male and female, tend to come from the women's college ranks? That's a surprise, but with the rules aligning between NCAAW, that makes sense in some weird way.

Anyway, the jump ball violation would have both AP and shot clock implications.

NBA officials tend to come from their system. There is no direct pathway for the NBA with people that work college basketball. There might be officials that have college basketball experience, but that is not how they are getting identified and used. College basketball has almost nothing to do with the NBA from an evaluator standpoint or how they train their officials.

Peace

Just Curious ...
 

I'm not disputing what JRutledge states, he seems confident and seems to know what he's talking about, he works top-notch scholastic and college games and has been a trainer at many basketball officiating camps all over the Midwest, and beyond, probably knows several professional basketball officials, I've only worked scholastic games here in my little corner of Connecticut and have only known just a few professional basketball officials.

I'm just curious as to how someone can be identified as a potential professional basketball official, receive professional training, and then begin to make their way up the professional ladder, with little prior scholastic or collegiate basketball officiating experience.

Perhaps JRutledge is referring to professorial training/evaluation/recruiting camps, just like we have scholastic and collegiate training/evaluation/recruiting camps?

Want to be a professional official? Start by attending so-and-sos professional camp? Little prior scholastic or collegiate basketball officiating experience required? Previous success and accolades at scholastic or collegiate basketball officiating not necessary? We'll teach you the professional way from the get-go? Fastest way up the officiating ladder to an NBA or a WNBA career? Guaranteed, or your money back?

All the very few guys that I know in the professional ranks were previously outstanding scholastic and collegiate basketball officials.

I wonder how many top-notch professional basketball officials started out by working scholastic middle school, freshman, or junior varsity games to begin their climb up the officiating ladder?

Maybe one can start officiating at the college level with no scholastic experience; or maybe one can start officiating at the professional level with no scholastic or college experience?

Maybe there's not just one long ladder, but several ladders, and one can chose, or not chose, to switch ladders, or start on any ladder that they wish to start.

As anyone can easily tell, I'm way out of my league in regard to this topic. Outside my wheelhouse. Fish out of water.

The NBA system feels that many officials who have worked extensive HS and college basketball schedules have picked up bad habits that have to be completely undone and/or have been exposed to a lot of bad advice from local veterans. If they see a brand new official working rec leagues or in some sort of camp and they like their look, athleticism, and run, they will snatch them up. They will want them to work games while they are part of the NBA Grassroots program, but they don't care what level they are working, they just want them to work games and see plays. Working NCAA-Women's helps out in that the coverage areas and mechanics are pretty much the same. Working off-season Pro-Am's and adult rec leagues helps them see above-the-rim and athletic plays.

Also, there are college supervisors out there who don't like "NBA track" refs on their rosters, just like there are HS assignors/commissioners who are inhospitable to college officials.

Schooled ...
 

Thanks Raymond. Great explanation regarding a topic that I was very unfamiliar with.

I naively believed that outstanding scholastic basketball officials became college basketball officials and that outstanding college basketball officials became professorial basketball officials; using their prior experience and success to move onto the next level.

Maybe that was true decades ago, but is, apparently, no longer true today.

You miss the point as always by taking some statement without understanding any context. I never said that an official that is in the NBA never worked in their life a high school game or middle school game in their career. I said that you are not going to get into the pro or NBA system by working a college game and all of a sudden you are in the G-League or WNBA. Just like you will not work D1 game without going to a D1 camp of a particular conference. They just do not pick you off the middle school and put you in the NBA the next game. The NBA has a system, tryouts, and applications to file, and then you might get picked and identified in their system. The days of them giving a D1 college guy an NBA opportunity are basically over just on watching them and giving them a shot. The WNBA is used for prospects who they are trying to get experience or are identified as a likely candidate.

Now if you have some specific examples, let me know.

Peace

Different Ladders ...
 

Times change. This is not your father's ladder any more.

https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.j...=0&w=300&h=300

There are officials that worked their first D1 game that never worked a high school varsity game. IJS.

Peace

Pro-Am Summer Basketball League ...
 

A new non-scholastic, non-collegiate, officiating training and assigning organization just started here in Connecticut. Their raison d'être is to train and assign officials for the Greater Hartford Pro-Am Summer Basketball League. They recruited guys from my local scholastic IAABO board, but were not only interested in taking the most experienced, and the best of the best, but are willing to train anybody who wanted to learn NBA rules and mechanics.

Learn Something Every Day ...
 

Thanks for sharing JRutledge.

Reminds me of the first soccer coach at the middle school that I taught at. Back then, not too many of my generation played soccer in high school. He was a baseball guy. The first soccer game he ever coached was, at the same time, the first soccer game he ever watched. Went on to a very successful soccer (and softball) coaching career at the high school.

Similar to some local scholastic basketball officials who added scholastic volleyball officiating to their repertoire and rapidly went on to scholastic volleyball officiating success (state tournament) with never having played a scholastic volleyball game (outside of a high school physical education class), in many cases the first scholastic volleyball game they worked was the first scholastic volleyball game they watched.

When you've got it, you've got it, some are just born with it.

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It is a little more than that. Officials are being trained for the levels that supervisors or clinicians feel they are able to work. That again is the point I am making. There is a system in place to get officials to higher levels. That system seems to work for some they identify as having the ability. High school associations or assignors spend more time telling officials of a certain age how long they have to wait, while the college and pro levels cultivate that talent and use them.

Peace