Let me give some background.

4th year official - 3 years varsity experience

Was working a 7th and 8th grade boys game. Home team had never been beat on their home court (2 or 3 years). Home team was ahead 5 at the half. Visitors made a run in the third to take the lead. It seemed that every call in the 4th qtr was right in my lap and went against the home team. Home team fouled lots late to try to get back into the game. Had a loose ball that was eventually tied up and had a jump ball but a home team player dove in late (after the whistle) and very aggressive. Whack T. 5th foul player was disqualified. Crowd was almost out of control at this point.Visitors get the W by about 10 after converting all there free throws late.

On my way out, I am verbally abused by the home folks...no big deal, I keep walking w/ my partner out the door where we are met by a mob of angry parents/fans. We keep heading for the exit sign and keep our mouths shut. A lady then grabs me by the arm and gives me an ear full. I keep walking she keeps walking too. Once outside she then starts hitting me 3-4 times in the upper arm, I keep walking, telling her she needs to go back inside. A man, her husband maybe, also is following us telling us our jurisdiction is over and what are we gonna do now. The whole situation looked very grim until I saw a law enforcement officer parked right beside our vehicle. I asked him to give us a hand and he got the lady off of me, the guy coninued to bager us until we got in the car and left. I called my assignor on the way home and let him know the scoop. He said he would call the school and take care of it.

My question is, should I press any sort of charges against this lady? I mean, she didn't hurt me, but she was trying. I just wanted to get the heck out of there last night but the more I think of it the more I want something done about this. No administrators helped us at all. My fear is that another official will go there and the same thing will happen to them. Thoughts and comments are welcome.

Sounds like a crappy night. What a lousy way to end a season. I would think you could file charges since she was hitting you and I would definitely pursue this, especially at the jr. high level. This is totally inappropriate at any level, but especially at lower levels where the players should be there to learn the game, not learn poor sportsmanship. Let us know if you hear how the school handles it. It sounds like you handled it as best you could. Thankfully the police were there when you needed them.

If you have the officer's name contact him & tell him you are thinking of pressing charges, or use his name when you go to the station to file charges. Don't wait too long to do this, in any event it might be that the cops will try & talk you out of it. You might also want to talk to someone at the DA's office to move things along especially since it looks like the officer at the scene didn't take a report including your friend's name & what he witnessed (maybe he did?). Also, write a full report & send it to the world: your assignor, your local associaton, the principal of both schools, the local police department. Do this with your partner or have him write one of his own. My 2 cents on this.

Also, and this is very important, there is no need for you to leave with the crowd. Give them 15 minutes or so to clear out & change into street clothes before you go.

In 11 years, I've had a few situations that could compare...but they all happened at the varsity level. On the two I can think of, each time the AD's took care of business. They told the fans/parents to go home, they kept me and my partner in the locker room for an extended period, and when the coast did clear, they personally escorted me & partner out to our cars.

Class both times.

Hopefully, your assigner will call that school and take care of it for you. I wouldn't pursue this lady...she didn't hurt you...albeit, she was WAY out of line, but she didn't hurt you.

Thinking more on this...I suppose it would be a good idea to write a report for yourself just in case you need to reference back to this situation.

[Edited by Indy_Ref on Oct 24th, 2003 at 12:11 PM]

I'm going to have to disagree with you Indyref. How is the woman going to learn what she did was wrong if she isn't dealt with? I realize that our courts are overworked and this is a "small" incident, but as Barney Fife says, "Nip it in the bud!" As more of these incidents are reported, maybe these fans will realize that acting like this is unacceptable and will not be tolerated.

agree with the previous post, 110%

YES!!! Definitely press charges!!! We are not allowed to physically assault the fans if we think they're stupid. I would definitely take legal action. And if the law enforcement officer actually SAW the physical assault, he's got to back you up, and you should have an open and shut case.

Excellent points on the extra-curricular activity...now how about a few observations on the "rest of the story".;)

4th year official - 3 years varsity experience

Wow...officiating Varsity ball after only one year of experience. Are you talking H.S. Varsity? If so, that's pretty dang good. It took me 3 years to get a full J.V. schedule.

a home team player dove in late (after the whistle) and very aggressive

In this situation it would have to be VERY late and VERY aggressive...otherwise I would pass.

Whack T. 5th foul player was disqualified.

Also, I've got an intentional foul after the whistle...not necessarily a T. (Two shots and the ball but different terminology)

Oh yeah!...Home team had never been beat on their home court (2 or 3 years).How in the heck do you know that...did you have a son playing or something?...I don't EVEN know the records of the many Middle Schools around the town...let alone for the past 3 years.

Just a few observations.

RD

In my state, Oregon, this woman (I hesitate to refer to her as a "lady") could be charged with assaulting a sports official. It is a Class A misdemeanor and carries a fairly stiff penalty including a fine and possibly even jail time!

Check the NASO website to see if your state has a specific law protecting sports officials. In any event, call the DA and say you want to file charges for assault.

You can bet that if you had hit her, she'd file.

Dude,

I'm not saying by any means that I am a great official. Heck, I can admit that I need lots of work on mechanics,judgement,court awareness and especially to learn to referee the "D" more.This was only my second game of the season and I'm sure I missed plenty last night. We are stretched pretty thin in my area and lots of officials get a chance to show they can make it early on, especially since we are strictly three man mechanics in HS varsity. So I got my shot and I'm trying to make the most of it. The T could have been an intentional instead, I agree. My partner and I talked about that very thing on the way home. Good point ! BTW, my partner had a whistle for this play as well as it was very late. Regarding knowing the record of the school, a partner that I work with sometimes has kids that goes to school there. He called me today and we were talking about the incident. He told me they had never been defeated there and I then thought maybe that was the gas that started the fire?
Roundballref









[Edited by tnroundballref on Oct 24th, 2003 at 01:55 PM]

You can't,by rule,have an intentional foul <b>after</b> the whistle, unless it is an intentional technical foul. An intentional personal foul, by definition, is a live-ball foul only.The whistle, by definition, made the ball dead in this case, so the foul occured during the dead ball period. Has to be a T.

I guess a blind hawk finds an acorn every once in a while JR. I feel a little better now knowing that we got the call right. Thanks for the clarification. Add rules as another thing I need to work on !

Do it!
 

You've got to report this and consider filing charges. Just because she didn't hurt you doesn't lessen the fact that she assaulted you. If someone pulls a gun and misses does it make the act itself any less repugnant?

You can choose to drop charges later, AFTER she is held accountable for her actions, given a chance to reflect on how stupid she was, and perhaps shows some semblance of remorse for this crappy behavior. Don't reinforce this kind of behavior, letting it go unchecked.

I guess a blind hawk finds an acorn every once in a while JR.
[/B][/QUOTE]Don't put yourself down. Sounds like you had a tough game, but you did exactly what you were supposed to do. You were fair to both teams,and you kept the game under control. You didn't make any rules mistakes either. You can be the best, most experienced official around, and when you get into this type of situation, the losing fans are gonna blame you, no matter what. Don't ever let them get to you. You know in your own mind that you did the right thing. That's all that really matters.

PS-I'm also on the side that thinks you should lay charges,with the help of your association. We don't want another ref to have to go through the same crap that you were forced to go through.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Oct 24th, 2003 at 02:37 PM]

Are you guys crazy or what
 

This is Jr. High...

Parents think they know more than everyone and many are alrady thinking that little johnny is going pro and will support them in the reclining years.

There are lots of options other than legal. The school district's AD needs to be aware as well as the state association. The school will be put on notice and it will be taken care of at that end.

In the future, the AD should have the officer in the gym, not in the parking lot, especially when there is a hostile crowd. He should escort you out if there are still people present. Again, this is something that the school district AD will make sure happens in the future.

You will need to file a report to those people.

It is possible that these problem people will be banned from being in the stands for a while.

As far as legal action, I think it is rediculous that people are suggesting that you press charges. These are the same people that will go by the letter of every rule but not its intent. I wonder how many of them would have enough in them to follow their own bad advice.

Very true...I didn't communicate well...
What I should have said was if it is a T, since it is a dead ball, it would be an intentional technical...not just a T. When I stated not necessarily a T that was wrong, since it was a dead ball (after the whistle). I should have said not necessarily a Flagrant Foul, which would be an Intentional Flagrant Foul during a dead ball.

Again, you must of thought it warranted a foul being called because...Rule 4-19-1 NOTE: "Contact after the ball has become dead is ignored unless it is ruled intentional or flagrant or is commited by or on an airborne shooter."

Hey, hang in there...I bet most of us officials in this forum joint has gone through similar stuff after games...we've all got stories. :)

RD

Thanks Dude,

I must admit, I was pretty keyed up when I got home and kept replaying the whole situation over and over in my head trying to understnad what I could have done differently to prevent the whole thing from happening. I'm still not sure what the answer is. Thanks for all the support from everyone ! It is appreciated.

We are required in my state to have a security meeting prior to all HS varsity contests. Those attending this meeting are the Referee, all head coaches (boys and girls), the game Administrator(GA)and a law enforcement officer. We discuss sportsmanship, and find out where to locate the GA and law enforcement in case a situation arises.

I may consider to start having a similar meeting at my grade school contests. What is the policy in other areas?

Two points....

There is no reason to call an "intentional technical". The penalty is the exact same as a technical. Contact while the ball is dead that is rule intentional can simply be called a technical (unless flagrant).

There is no such thing as an "Intentional Flagrant Foul". It's either intentional or it is flagrant. Not both.

Also, the term intentional is really a bad term since it may or may not involve actual intent. In this case, I actually like the NBA's method of having flagrant 1 and flagrant 2.

Damian
I am not sure that I would file charges either, but I don't wear your shirts or run the sidelines in your shoes. I can say taht this behavior must be addressed, and it is extreme to tell all these posters that share this opinion that it is "ridiculous." It may differ from your opinion, but I can tell you that I am on the fence on this. Physical abuse of officials, regardless of how minor, must be addressed in some formal manner. whether it is the courts or through school district/state association, I can't say which is better. I can see both sides. And neither is ridiculous on face value.

Make a real case for the precise corrective action that you recommend rather than throwing bombs into the crowd.

I should have said not necessarily a Flagrant Foul, which would be an Intentional Flagrant Foul during a dead ball.

[/B][/QUOTE]There is no such thing as an Intentional Flagrant Foul, whether it occurs during a live ball or dead ball.Generally, if the ball's alive, for contact fouls you can have a personal or common foul,an intentional personal foul,or a flagrant personal foul. If the ball is dead, you can have a technical foul, an intentional technical foul, or a flagrant technical foul. There are exceptions when it comes to an airborne shooter. in this case,it's TN's judgement as to what kinda T he wanted to call.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Oct 24th, 2003 at 03:26 PM]

Damian-->

Tell it to the judge. Oh wait, you're not pressing charges! ;)

Sheeesh...am I screwing up my terminology or what?!!!
I meant to say FLAGRANT TECHNICAL FOUL not intentional flagrant foul...sorry. ;)

Contact while the ball is dead that is rule intentional can simply be called a technical (unless flagrant).


Do you agree with the above statement JR?
I give the crossed arms over the head signal (intentional foul signal) when I'm reporting this type of foul, why not?
Otherwise the foul could be mistaken for unsportsmanlike conduct,etc...just a thought.

RD

[Edited by RookieDude on Oct 24th, 2003 at 04:07 PM]

Imo, you're both right- and it's not a big deal. An intentional technical foul called for dead-ball contact can be called just a plain ol' normal T, by the terminology in the rule book. You can use either,but there really is no advantage or disadvantage involved in using one over the other when you are reporting. They're basically both the same in all aspects. If you do use the crossed arms, you are still completely correct according to the rules, though. I think that what Camron is saying is that most officials,unless it's flagrant,will just call the T and let it go at that,without bothering to go through the extra signalling,etc. Calling it just a plain ol' T seems to be the standard procedure used in most area,from what I've personally seen.

That's exactly what I'm saying! :)

Here is my two cents

1) pursue criminal charges, let her face the criminal justice system with potential fines and jail time ( she probably wont do jail) but you may not know her history- Has she done this before? is she on probabtion for violence? What is she taeching her kids? She needs to learn her behavior is socially unacceptable

2) Pursue a civil tort case against her for battery, my guess is an attorney would probably take this on contingency. you dont need to pursue much in damages but it outght to be enough to get her attention ...

Of course none of this is intended to be specific legal advice because I want no trouble with the ABA and bar association of your state

I was actually out having a life today instead of just cruising the board all day, so I'm checking in kind of late, but I would say at least go through the beginning motions of pressing charges. You might try to get some press coverage, so that other parents learn that this isn't acceptable, and could cause them more trouble than it's worth. This gal may or may not learn her lesson, but going through the motions does help get the message out.

I was "assaulted" once, fairly early on in my career, by an angry coach who followed me out onto the floor after a particular call, and gave me a good chest bump. There's a thread here about it somewhere, I'm not good at finding links. He was forcibly removed from the gym by his assistant and the site manager (this was 6th grade rec league!!), one on each arm, and came back later to apologize. The site manager asked me whether I wanted to press charges, but it looked as though the assistant coach was taking care of the "lesson" aspect of things, so I decided not to. Besides, I still had the whistle in my mouth when he got to me, and he was about six inches shorter than me so I gave him a good one right in the ear. I hope that was enough punishment.

The big difference I see between your situation and mine is that in my case, there was just one angry person, and not a whole crowd, and the guy didn't "get away with it." In your case, where this gal may still today feel justified in her actions, you definitely need to send a message. I just cannot imagine a society that thinks it's even remotely okay to get to the point of physical damage about something as unimportant (in the scheme of things) as 7th grade basketball!

One place where you can get in trouble
 

with the common foul / technical foul thing is when a live ball passes through the basket from above . . . points are scored, and the ball is temporarily dead, until it is at the disposal of the inbounding team. There can be some serious disagreement amongst the players at this point, so guard against too quick a whistle. Usually the ball is coming back into play and their attention to feuding is short-lived . . .

The only way to make something good come out of a situation like this, for us as an community of officials, is to NOT just let it go. When we do that, we in essence, validate the behavior. I agree with those that advocate the pursuit of legal remedies. I believe, the more the public is made aware this type of action is not acceptable and will not be tolerated, the better chances we each have of not encountering similar occurances in the future. Conversely, when we ignore such incidents and let them slide, the more chances we have of encountering them. It is unfortunate, that often the only way we have of getting such messages effectively across to the masses is with the "big stick" of the media and the best opportunity of doing that is by utilizing the legal system available to us.

There may be other valid reasons to pursue remedies, but I feel-at the least-this reason should not be ignored.

Thanks for the post and the opportunity it has given us to express opinions on such an important issue, which too many of us are faced with during our careers.

If you do not do anything about this so-called lady NOW, she will do the same thing to the next official (cause she got away with it first time) and so on til someone does something about it.

It is <b><i>important</i></b> that you file charges on the woman. I would suggest that you also file charges on the man. You were assaulted by both.

Assault is the threat to do harm. Battery is the act of doing it.

I had a similar incident happen to me. I only filed a report with the association and school, not with law enforcement. Several weeks later a fellow official was attacked at the site, not by the same person, but by the same "group" of folks. Setting limits of acceptable behavior must be done.

Although it may seem extreme to some or even to yourself, you need to file charges -- and you should do it ASAP while the incident is still fresh in your mind and in the minds of your partner, the officer who helped you out, as well as the lady and man who were involved on the other side of this unfortunate incident.

One of my assignors was assualted in a rec league game and he wanted to "let it go" but was convinced by one of the players in the game (who happened to be an attorney) that it was necessary to file charges. His advice to us (those who work for him now) in a similar situation is to file charges.

My two cents.

I don't see how you can possibly NOT file charges. People like this have to be made aware that their behavior is inappropriate.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Oct 25th, 2003 at 05:51 PM]

This happens at a shopping mall instead of a gymnasium and it's a no-brainer.

Go make an example of these idiots.

I think something else that needs addressed here is where was game management...if you do press charges, even if it is meant as a "bluff" charge, include game management...that school is as responsible for what happened as the fan is....

Charge game management?
 

WHAT? Please don't tell me that as a principal I'm responsible for every stupid thing somebody does at my school. You'd have a hard time making that charge stick. I'm on the fence when it comes to pressing charges against this woman. Stupid people are stupid, and only in the movies do they see the error of their ways and change. Press charges, she'll still be stupid. Just stupid and madder.

mplagrow, if you are the game administration you most certainly are responsible for making sure the officials have safe passage to and from your property....to allow a mob to accost an official, without calling the authorities or making an effort to handle it yourself would not be that hard to make stick as negligence....It isn't that hard, it usually takes nothing more than telling the crowd to move on. Are you telling me that if someone comes on to school property and accosts a student you have no responsibility there either...get real, stand up and take care of your responsibility, which includes safety for all on your property...

Re: Charge game management?
 

You and I both know this depends on exactly what the duties of the principal are. If by contract/convention/job description you are responsible for maintaining security during these events then you're on the hook.
Who cares how stupid and mad she is as long as she doesn't do this again.

Re: Charge game management?
 

If you we are talking criminal charges you are right you cannot be held criminally liable for the actions of another unless with what you did you were some how an accomplice to this which under most circumstances would be such a strecth it would never happen...

However under a civil liablity theory of assault by her, a good attorney would probably also name the school, and the game management as a defendant. If it can be shown that with a game management's actions or inactions that the result was forseeable... That a reasonable game management provides for better security for officials, that this was negligence , yes you could be named- and your school's district could be held liable.

There are variables here if it is a public school there will be issues with governemntal immunity and what the state allows to be sued upon... if it is a private school -- yep law suit!
It may depend if school was hosting as official event vs. non-offical event--- ad nauseum...

Never say never and schools have deeper pockets. and if the game management is negligent in their duties ... well you are responsible..

You as an educator should not be on the fence with this...
I bet if you had a student that was hitting a teacher, you would not be wishy washy. If the student assaulted you I bet the kid would be suspended, and juvenile authorities would be involved... You either condone the violence or you dont, and if you dont there are civil and criminal recourses that ought to be pursued.

Yes, I am the administrator of a private school. However, I am also an official, so I am just trying to see all sides. But I'm not a lawyer. I definitely agree that there needs to be a reasonable amount of security for officials, AMEN, that would have prevented the problem before it occurred. My point is just that sometimes an individual acts in an unforeseeable fashion, and no amount of game management can always prevent that. It sounds like you know your law. I suppose in a society where someone can sue McD's for making them fat, someone can sue my school because of one individual's actions. But then you have to define where my responsibility ends as game administrator. What if the ref is parked on a public street and the accosting happens there? What if it happens at a gas station half an hour later? And as far as pressing charges goes, I just question what purpose will be served. Revenge? Teach her a lesson? Educate her? I've heard a few different rationals already offered on this board. I am 'on the fence' because I've seen the results of pressing charges, and it seldom is done for constructive reasons and usually doesn't accomplish anything. . .except the desire for revenge.

in the original post it sounded as if game management was no where to be found...if this is the case then I think they should be named in any court documents...if game management was there and couldn't get the crowd away and did what they could then that is a different story...the point of the lawsuit would be to set an example...maybe if enough parents see that this is not only socially unacceptable but also costly and against the law, maybe just maybe it will keep some from acting this way.....we can only hope...and look on in dismay that it has gotten to this point....

Move on. Don't file charges. If some chick wants to get all huffy about a junior high game, don't let her think you gave it another thought. Tell her to go home and make babies and leave the sports to the men!

The accepted principle has been outlined in the rulebook for many years. It tells you exactly where the responsibility lies.

Rule 2-8-1NOTE- "<i>The home management or game committee is responsible for spectator behaviour, insofar as it can reasonably be expected to control the spectators</i>".

I think that officials assigned to any high school game should have a "reasonable assurance" that they will not be assaulted by fans. If an incident like the one described above occurs in our officials association's jurisdiction, we would <b>not</b> send officials back to this school until we are 100% sure that there will not be a repeat of the problem. I'm not being smart,but if a school administrator is "up on the fence" over a problem like this, we would just tell him "Fine, see if you can find some officials to do your games while you're up there. The ones down here aren't going to do them until we have complete assurance that something like this will never happen again".

As far as I'm concerned, there <b>isn't</b> two sides when it comes to assaulting officials.

As a lawyer(from your profile), then that would be your advice to someone that asked you to file a civil suit in a case like above?

Let me clarify
 

I agree with you that officials should not have to deal with this. As an administrator, I would do everything in my power to make sure this wouldn't happen again, even if it meant clearing the gym for the next three home games to make my point. Not to beat it to death, but here's my point of contention: as an official, and as a person, I don't agree that legal action against a small-minded person is going to help the situation, and I wouldn't do it myself or recommend it. 'Nuff said.

Jurassic,
There are no damages whatsoever here. It's not a big deal. If he had medical bills, shrink bills, or ANYTHING to suggest there was an injury, that's a different story. This situation doesn't warrant a second thought on the ref's part. Move on, next game.

Lawref, I couldn't disagree with you(and mplagrow) more! I have seen so many good people over the years that have given up officiating, either because of the abuse that they have taken, or because nobody would try to do anything about the abuse that they had to take.

You're both certainly entitled to your opinion. Please just remember that opinion,if you ever happen to be assaulted by a fan when you're officiating. You might wanna let your partners know in the pregame also that you'll be "walking away" if anything happens. That way they'll know what to expect.

Consider all the time & effort a person needs to devote to educating itself to become a lawyer. Now reread this response. Not very encouraging.

I'm gonna tell mom you said this, and you are gonna get in so much trouble!!

I would press charges because I do believe that the person being charged would think twice about doing it again. We had a referee assaulted after a hotly contested high school game here last year. Father of a player on the losing team went down a back set of stairs, through the locker room and to the officials room, beat on the door and when the ref in question opened it he came in and took a swing at him, knocking him into a desk. The ref's partner broke it up and game management finally showed up and had the father arrested. He was charged and sentenced this summer to one week in jail and a $500 fine. He never apologized or admitted he was wrong, but he is now a pariah at his son's school and I seriously doubt that he will ever confront a game official again. Why should physically striking an official be any different than striking someone else?

I still say let it go
 

Pressing charges is crimnal action not civil. No injuries were listed. This can be taken care of by the school officials and the district's AD. Listen to the lawref and don't slam us because we don't agree with you.

We too are just as entitled to our opinion as you are. The difference is that we aren't making fun of you in spite of your opinions for which I strongly disagree.

Thinking long term, I may want to officiate at this location again. Pressing charges will either place me as a target on scratch lists, or problem will continue.

Again the main lesson is for the official to know when and when not to leave with a crowd around.

I believe that I said above that I fully respect the right for you,lawref or anybody else to have their own opinion in this case. I also don't think that I made fun of anybody.

I do have to tell you, to be quite honest,even though I respect your right to have that opinion, I have absolutely <b>NO</b> respect for that opinion. That's my personal opinion,Damian,and I'm entitled to that the same way that you are entitled to your's.

Right to disagree
 

Well, Jurassic, I'll do you one better. I respect that you respect Damian's right to his opinion, but I have no respect for your lack of respect for that opinion. Top that!

I'm not the type of guy to charge or sue people on a whim, and I'd like to think that most people are like that - especially officials - especially the ones that care enough to frequent this board.

We know we have to have a thick skin, that we need to check our egos, and that we must, from time to time, endure unpleasantness to do our job.

But this case clearly crosses the line of what is included in doing our job, and what NO ONE should have to endure, regardless of the situation. And, in my opinion, it ABSOLUTELY fits the criteria for a criminal charge of assault.

The fact that this official was lucky enough to have some small woman take 3-4 punches at him instead of her 6'6", 260lb son, is IRRELEVANT. What happens if that cop isn't parked outside? Maybe the husband joins in. Maybe his friends do. Maybe the whole crowd does. Then what? Is that unacceptable enough for you? Is that what it takes before you, as an official, say "enough"?

It's not about revenge, it's about drawing a line and backing it up. It's about reminding people that you don't get to do whatever the hell you like. It's about reminding people that officials have a tough job and ARE ENTITLED to a safe working environment. And, yes, it's about reminding administrators who need to promote more sportsmanship, respect, and common decency in their Athletic programs.

Maybe criminal charges aren't necessary here - maybe school administration clamps down, bans the parents from future games, or takes other action. But that's often tough for them to do. Maybe a proactive group of parents gets a wake-up call and pushes a program to promote fair play, sportsmanship, and respect. But don't hold your breath.

These people - and the ones who stood by and did nothing - need to understand that what happened is NOT ACCEPTABLE - PERIOD. If criminal charges are what it takes, so be it.

I close by asking this...what would you tell your kids if they witnessed this? Would you tell them it was acceptable?

Re: Right to disagree
 

I really don't think that we're in any kind of a "top that" situation here. What you said above is your opinion and you're certainly entitled to it, no matter what. That's only fair. Both you and I also have the same right to personally agree or disagree with each other's opinions also. It is quite apparent that we do happen to disagree on this particular one. C'est la vie!

Well said!! (but that's just my opinion) :D

I wonder if the school administration would be
 

upset if, the next time some woman with a 260 lb son at her side and/or a gun in her purse starts beating on me, I snap her neck, like a chicken? Yeah, probably. I suppose I should just take my beating and hope the kid doesn't decide to sit on me. Better me than her, right?

Damian - where do you stand?
 

I am sorry, but I didn't find your initial post to be very respectful of others opinions - it ridiculed them. And I am not sure what you found to be disrespectful in other's posts here - I thought it was a very reasonable discussion with the exception above and below.

A lawyer who calls women "chicks" and says they should stay home and make babies - he's backing your side. He is not only ridiculing the other side, he is completely disrespectful to half the human race and a number of responsible participants on this forum. It's unfortunate that he is allowed to provide legal counsel to anyone with that type of attitude.

Re: Re: Right to disagree
 

Mplagrow:: You forgot a smilie!!

Not even a question I would press charges
 

Yes, it's possible I wouldn't be invited or scheduled back at that gym, but there's only one reason why I would press charges.

I'm not sure anything could be conclusively proven or that the defendants would be convicted, etc. But I think that there should be a point made to publicize this story on the local level and one way to make that happen is to press charges. I would not be in favor of flogging this person publicly until they are convicted, but if it were broadcast that charges were filed, it might cause a few of the other hotheads out there to think twice. It won't prevent all irrational fans, but it may cause a few more to think about the issue when they read about it in the paper. Or maybe I'm just naive.

Juulie,I think that he was quite serious about the statement above. Either way, I've got no problem with that anyway. It's his opinion. No different than me giving mine, or Damian giving his.

mplagrow
I agree that I cannot see a reason to include the elementary school game management in on a civil suit, unless it was clear that there had been some kind of problem before.

On any given day, there are a large number of games for this age group that have no game management at all. If there have been problems, you step up security. But I have never seen a physical security presence at an ES game, regularly seen it at MS and HS. The real responsiblity lies with the individual who has lost touch with reality and is assaulting a ref at a little kid's game.

Sorry, but this "civil vs. criminal" comparison is watering down the issue. Going and filing a lawsuit on a whim is not the point here.

Not every referee harrassment situation deserves criminal charges. But this one, as described, does - for the reasons I vented my spleen over before.

Many people, at many levels, screwed up big time here. People need to be held accountable.

Jurassic...
 

JR,

How many times have you pressed charges on an individual(s) for a similar act that occurred before, during, or after a game? In your 40+ years of officiating multiple sports, I'm quite sure you've had some instances where you pressed charges.

Please post some of the instances here so we can learn how to handle these situations if/when we decide to press charges in our own future games. I appreciate hearing about some of the other official's experiences that have been posted here. How about hearing about some of yours?

Thanks.

canuck
I support the idea of filing charges against the perpetrator, but not civil nor criminal charges against a school or principal for this incident - if it is a single, isolated incident. This is a case of a person who lost perspective at an elementary school game.

If you were to file any charges against the principal or the school, you may as well file a preemptive suit against every rec or school league that operates without a physical security presence in the gym. There are lots of them in my area. And while you're filing charges, sue the officiating organization and the assignor for not ensuring that the leagues or schools are providing adequate security prior to assigning officials to games.

Re: I still say let it go
 

This is the same argument as it being a rape victims fault for wearing "seductive" clothing.

I leave when I'm finished. If someone assaults me, they're going to the Big House, baby!

Re: Re: I still say let it go
 

We might as well put them all in the Big House then...since there are several assaults coming down from the crowd over the course of the entire night!

I didn't realize 3-person mechanics was going to mean 2 officials work a game while the 3rd points out assaulters in the crowd! ;)

I'll give you 2 examples from the last coupla years. Please note that I get involved in these because all complaints- both ways- get funnelled through me in our association. Btw, this may be a long post- to fully describe all details.
1)City League varsity boys finals last year: I assigned a very promising, young but experienced official to this game. For his partner, I made sure that he was paired with a take-charge vet. Game was held in a neutral site- a local community college gym- and the game was standing room only. At the end of the game, a male adult followed the young official to the dressing room,screaming and swearing at him. The officials asked gym security to get rid of the guy, and he was escorted out of the building. The fan was identified as a parent of one of the players, who was also a local high school teacher at another school, and had coached Frosh and JV ball at that school. I asked for incident reports from both officials, gym security and other people who had witnessed the scene. We sent these reports, along with a letter, to the committee that oversees high school sports for this league. We also sent copies to the involved fan/parent and the principal of the high school that employs him. Basically, we stated that this type of action was deplorable,and, unless we were given assurances that something like this would not happen again, we would not officiate any games that he was in attendance at-whether he was coaching or watching. We basically told them that if we felt a game wasn't safe for our officials, then we wouldn't be sending any. I also made sure that a long time acquaintance, the sports editor of the local paper,got the story also. He wrote a column on it, without identifying the fan, but deploring his actions.The upshoot was that the fan was completely embarrassed, apologized in writing to everyone that he could think of, and even wrote a "letter to the editor" telling everyone how big an idiot he was. We received similar letters from his principal,the sports council, etc., all stating that they deplored his actions and that they would try to ensure that similar acts wouldn't happen like that in the future. Will it stop future incidents like this? I really don't think so, but it can't hurt- and I know one fan who's gonna behave himself from now on anyway. I hope.

If you think that the above might have been an over-reaction on our part, it flowed partly from this incident the year before:
2)Boy's varsity regional tournament here in town: I was the RIC(referee-in-chief) and assignor. Neutral officials for all games- couldn't be from the league representatives that were playing. The officials (one from my association) had just entered their dressing room after their game ended. Another official who had watched the game had just come to tell the guys that they had done a good job. All of a sudden, the door smacks open and hits the official who had just entered right in the back. It's a fan/father from the losing team who's totally p*ssed at one of the officials. This fan is swearing his head off, threatening the official and trying to get at him. The other official physically held him off, and security then came in and got the guy. Long story short? We laid charges for "threatening" and the school where the game was held laid "trespassing" charges against the fan/parent for going into the dressing room. One plea-bargain later, the fan pleaded guilty to both charges, paid a small fine, and agreed to be barred from his son's gmes until his son graduated.The down side? The threatened official was so shaken up that he said that he would refuse playoff assignments in the future if he was selected. I heard that he did change his mind on that eventually,and I'm glad because I thought that the guy was an excellent official.

Indy,by no means are these all the problems that I've seen over the years- but I'm out of breath. :D I've just seen so many promising,as well as veteran, officials quit because of the abuse, that I am kind of a fanatic now about not cutting anybody any slack.

Related Article - Officially Fed Up
 

The following is an article published in the Fresno(CA) Bee

http://www.fresnobee.com/sports/hs/s...-8538971c.html

I can understand the desire to file charges, but I would first seek non-litigious avenues of reconciliation. As soon as possible, write down the specifics of the situation. Ask your partner to do the same. Then, meet with your assignor, again as soon as possible, to discuss the events and possible solutions. Then, with your assignor, contact the school, and have a meeting with the principal, the AD (if one exists) and the home coach. Tell them basically what Jurassic told the school officials in the first instance - that your association will no longer officiate games for the school unless action is taken. I would further tell them that if anything remotely resembling the incident happens again you will file charges, and the school and the program will appear in newspapers and websites nationwide. Nothing like adverse publicity to make a school administrator take notice.

I think parents/fans would respond much more positively if they were redressed by school officials. That way, it puts the school on your side, as well. If you pursue legal remedies, the school doesn't have to take a stand, per se, so the parent does feel like its a revenge situation. With the school driving the action, it takes on a more "official" role.

Good luck. As a reformed hothead, I'm truly sorry you suffered this kind of abuse. Just, remember, its not your fault.

Great post, JR. I agree 100% on how your first instance was handled...and I could be "talked into" accepting the second. More so, because the fan made it to the locker room, yelled assaults, had to be restrained and ushered out by security. The fact that the fan made it to the locker room proves a breakdown in security.

For me, I guess, it's a fine line. In tnroundball's instance, I believe the biggest problem was game management. Word of advice: Any official just calling a heated/controversial game should have enough sense to hang out and not leave too quickly...while fans/spectators/players/coaches are hanging around. Also, any game management personnel worth their money ought to recognize when officials need a little extra protection and take the initiative to ensure their saftey.

Despite what happened to tnroundball, I still can't see filing charges against anybody in his particular case. I would say report the incident and let the assigner & game management take care of it. Had tnroundball gotten hurt or seriously threatened, then take care of it as in JR's case #2. I can certainly agree with that.

For Indy, and anybody else that is interested and has a few minutes to spare, here is an excellent article from the National Association of Sports Officials website:

http://www.naso.org/naso_relations/specreports.html

Click on "Officials Under Assault". It's a pdf file.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Oct 27th, 2003 at 02:23 PM]

I agree with you if there is some sort of control present in the gym. All those fans who assaulted tnrb outside, were only slightly inconvenienced by the walk. It might have happened anyway, just under the lights and in warmer surroundings, even if he had stayed in the gym. The secret is to judge the climate in the last couple minutes, and before the game ends, find some security or management to stick close to.

I think you and some of the other post-ers are confusing filing a lawsuit vs pressing criminal charges. I'm not advising filing a lawsuit. I think that would probably be out of line in this situation. I do think pressing criminal charges is completely appropriate. A crime has been committed, and it is a crime which is rampant in our society and needs to be stopped. That is why the Assault on Officials Laws have been passed, and we should avail ourselves of every opportunity to let the general public know that this ain't okay!

Tardy
 

I know I'm entering this conversation prettylate in the show but...

Initially, when I read the scenario I had this vision of the BAD COP waiting by my car... You know... If I could make it through the crowd then the policeman would reluctantly do his duty to protect me.

For the life of me I'm still wondering where the game administration was? And why wasn't the police dispersing the crowd before the officials entered the fray? Perhaps there were some real issues (albeit inexcusable crowd response) that rose during the game and the adminstrator and the police felt justified in allowing the crowd to have their way.

I've been in the situation of these officials where I thought if I slowed down at all, the crowd would beat the holy crap out of me. And I was working the game with my wife so that tripled my concerns. We weren't touched and we ignored alot of comments, but game mangement was there and ushered us into a safe haven (and it was the home team that lost). Home Team Game Management saved our bacon.

There is something that has changed in my character and the way I handle myself since that game and today. I'm not sure how describable it is. I will try.

I have decided that it is my attitude that determines the attitude of the players, of the coaches, and of the crowd. Me; I determine the situation that I am in. The differences in how I act are subtle, small little things. I can show my disdain for having to make a call. The call was needed. But by displaying the nuances of "wish I didn't have to make that call" I remove the burden of guilt from myself and righfully place it on the players that committed the act. Watching a hot-head a little closer than every other player is an opposite tactic. And any call made on this player must be made with absolute indifference - there can be absolutely be no flavor of "gotcha." An official must display enjoyment at some points of the game, 100% professionalism at others, and a realm of empathy and dissatisfaction upon the need to make particular calls at other times. The tone of the game is not completely in the hands of the officials. There is sure to occasionally be anomalous behaviour from players, coaches, and crowd. It is the officials confidence and ability to address, as needed (and it isn't always needed), and then to subsequently deal with these anomalies that will determine the smoothness of game flow and acceptance of your judgements by the participants.

Again, I wonder what prompted this response from the crowd, and game management, and the police. I strongly feel that somehow this crowd of parents needs to be reprimanded. And that the officials may need to take a strong look at what their own causal factors may have been. JMHO

I feel the official's association needs to take a strong position to defend their officials and not validate these actions by saying nothing. The association should be in game management's (and the coach's) ear saying, "Intentional or not, you screwed up. You should have protected the officials. You should have ensured the parents were gone. You should have ensured the police were in the middle next to the officials and not waiting for them at the end of the gaunlet. You will make some efforts and some public reprimands and these efforts will meet the association leadership's approval or perhaps you can get some of those parents to officiate your games."

Maybe Lawref will work your games unless he is too busy disparaging and condescending the public. ;) smilie included.

[Edited by DownTownTonyBrown on Oct 27th, 2003 at 04:05 PM]

I also believe criminal charges would be hard to press against the school, and that it may not be appropriate. I acknowledged in my previous post that schools are in a difficult position. But they have responsibilities.

If, in the process, through negative publicity or whatever, the school is forced to re-examine its policies on fan behavior, sportsmanship, and respect at sporting events, then that is what needs to happen.

The school didn't assault the ref, but they need to examine the possible root causes of this kind of behavior.

My 2 pennies, tnroundballref has courage. It is easy to make calls for the home team. Right or wrong calls, he had some courage. Please be positive and learn from this. You will be a better official later for looking at it in a positive light.

Rainmaker was right about at least starting the steps to press charges. What are we trying to accomplish? At the very least we do not want this particular fan to do this again. She hit him for crying out loud! With witnesses! She should be banned from the games as long as her child plays ball in this school district. Who cares about a fine, the money isn't going to the ref anyway.
There are children that probably know about this and if nothing happens vs. something happening can help mold their attitude towards officials in all sports for the rest of their lives! It could impact tnroundballref's career and all games/officials at this school and this child's games.

If this is as clear cut as it was posted it will help the game to press charges. For those that do not agree I would like to ask you one question. What good is it going to do if charges aren't pressed?

Well, after much thought and consideration, I have decided not to file charges. My assignor contacted the school and told them if they did not correct the situation, that we would no longer service their school. They promised him that they would take care of the matter. I will be satisfied if the administration will take care of the matters and I can only assume that they will.I must say that I weighed all the options many times over, and with all the things I have going on in my life, stressful job, getting married in December, etc; I really just came to the conclussion that I wouldn't have the time or energy it would take to carry out filing charges.

I talked to several people within my officials organization and got mixed feelings, similar to what has been said here. I want to let everybody know that I appreciate your thoughts and comments. I also want to say thanks for all those that said,Hang in there",it came at a much needed time.I just hope those that disagree could put themselves in my position and understnad why I did what I did. There is a good chance that I will catch this team again Thursday night at a neutral site (Tourney). I will not go in and be intimidated, but at the same time I don't want top seem cocky eaither. I plan on using some advice and let my facial expressions help me sell that I didn't want to call it but had to. Again, thanks to all !!!!!

tnroundball -- I think if you feel comfortable that the situation will be addressed, you probably did the right thing. I hope your assignor will alert every ref that goes there, so that if there is another incident, there will be more people aware of the risks, and stronger action will then be appropriate.

The school says they're addressing the problem, and that should be good enough. I hope your association follows up to make sure they back up their promise.

If you can remedy this situation without the police, that is usually the best solution.

A very thoughtful response by you to this situation, congratulations!

Now just get out there and ref...

Way to handle yourself tnroundballref......we back your tough decision.

I hope your assignor visits this place several times this year to make sure everything, indeed, has been taken care of. Now, it's his hands. Let him do his job.