IL Test Question
 

49. Team A violates during the game's opening jump ball. Which of the following is true?

A. The AP arrow is set to team B's basket when the throw-in is completed.

B. The AP arrow is set to team A's basket when the throw-in is completed.

C. The AP arrow is set to team B's basket when the ball is placed at team B's disposal for the throw-in.

D. None of the above.

Nevermore ...
 

When they first invented the alternating possession arrow, the rule used to be (paraphrased), "Lose the ball. Lose the arrow".

https://tse2.explicit.bing.net/th?id...=0&w=300&h=300

None Of The Above ...
 

My guess:

E) The AP arrow is set to team A's basket when the ball is placed at team B's disposal for the throw-in.

4-3: Alternating-possession control is established and the initial direction of the possession arrow is set toward the opponent’s basket when:
ART. 3 The ball is placed at the disposal of the thrower after:
a. A violation during or following the jump before a player secures control.

I would say D. The arrow is set to A's basket when B has the ball at their disposal for the throw-in. It's a strange rule, because the throw-in is not an AP throw-in. This is because possession was already determined by awarding the free throws. Under any other rule set, this discussion would be moot, because we would shoot free throws and return to the point of interruption, the opening jump ball.

Possession And Control ...
 

On a play where the jumper illegally catches the ball, the rationale was it's a possession (an illegal possession) and control, and thus non-violating team should get the ball for the violation and non-violating team get the arrow because the violating team had control first.

Quoth the Raven, “Nevermore.”

I can't remember how other jump ball violations were handled.

How about a little help Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.? Make yourself useful.

What FTs?

Got Our Backs ...
 

Tip o' the hat to Raymond, who in another recent thread reminded us of this rule.

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.B...=0&w=307&h=173

D
 

D.

D. Rule 4-3-3A

Thanks. I also had D, with the correct administration being as indicated.

Since we just had a thread about jump balls and the AP arrow, everybody here should get this question right with no doubts.

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The answer that I have is B. That is what we agreed on tonight at least.

I can verify that one, but that is what we had.

Peace

And, thus, why I asked -- to see if I missed something, or mis-read the question or if I just disagree with the apparently official answer.

I had a similar question on my test, but my example included free throws for a pre-game technical foul. I was surprised why they would say that the arrow should be set at the throw-in, and not when the free throws are awarded, because, at least in high school basketball, technical fouls include awarding possession.

The penalty for a technical foul is free throws followed by a throw-in. You don't set the initial arrow until you fully penalize, which is when the ball is live for the throw-in. Based on your logic, if Team A were shooting the free throws and Team A then got a technical prior to the throw-in, Team B would then shoot free throws, then get a throw-in, plus have the AP Arrow based on it being set when Team A shot its free throws.

Multiple Choice ...
 

My answer is C) Disagree with the apparently official answer (The AP arrow is set to team A's basket when the throw-in is completed).

4-3: Alternating-possession control is established and the initial direction of the possession arrow is set toward the opponent’s basket when:
ART. 3 The ball is placed at the disposal of the thrower after:
a. A violation during or following the jump before a player secures control.

The AP arrow is set to team A's basket when the ball is placed at team B's disposal for the throw-in.

Are you saying "B" has been noted as the correct answer by the test-giving organization?

Verify ...
 

Apparently JRutledge has "verified" it. But his wording ("but") seems somewhat ambiguous.

So I've been told. :shrug: -- stuff happens -- a similar question (with the correct answer) was on last year's test. maybe they changed the question and the new question didn't make it to the test along with the new answers, or maybe there were multiple drafts of the answers and an incorrect one got posted...

I'm more interested in learning / teaching the right rule than in assessing the question.

A gets possession based on the free throws. Therefore, the throw-in following the possession is technically not an AP throw-in. This means that whatever happens after A gains possession (via the free throws) is irrelevant. The arrow only comes into play the next time there is a situation involving unclear possession (whether at the start of the next period or sooner, due to a held ball). AP throw-ins are triggered by a disputed possession situation (start of period, held ball, ball stuck in the ring, double foul with no possession, etc.), so if another throw-in is required after the AP throw-in starts (e.g. B kicks the ball on an AP throw-in) or before the AP throw-in (e.g. a player gets a technical foul after possession is awarded, but before the throw-in is administered.), then the subsequent throw-in is not an AP throw-in. I actually had a situation in a JV game where I awarded an AP throw-in, but never administered it, because a player on the team that would have gotten the ball clapped in an opponent's face. I assessed a technical foul to the clapping player, an opponent shot two free throws, and the opponents got the ball. Because the AP throw-in was not administered, the arrow did not change, and the team who "won" the AP throw-in got to throw the ball in at the start of the next quarter.

I'm not really following your train of thought based on your original statement.

Bottom-line, the INITIAL setting of the arrow doesn't happen until the ball is ready to be ALIVE (to use an NBA term). We could have a mess of stuff happen before the first throw-in. They don't want the AP arrow INITIALLY set until all the dead-ball scenarios are out of the way.

Assessing The Question ...
 

Attended a local IAABO Refresher Exam study group last night. We had about a dozen guys, some of whom are very good "rules guys". We didn't have an answer sheet. We all agreed on about 80% of the answers that we brought to the group. Another 10% we agreed upon after taking deep dives into the rulebook and casebook.

It was that last 10% that was difficult. Despite taking many deep dives into the rulebook and casebook, we still could not agree on some answers, even with the rule or casebook play in front of us.

Why the disagreement? Not because of the wording of the rule or the casebook play, but because of the poor ambiguous wording of the question.

IAABO should hire some retired SAT or ACT question writers to edit the wording of these questions.

Like bob jenkins said, the good news was that we all learned a lot last night.

Overtime Jump Ball Bonus ...
 

Like when we have a common foul (while in the bonus) between the toss of the jump ball to start an overtime period and before anybody gains control.

We'll have rebounders on the lane and we set the alternating possession arrow when the ball is at the disposal of the free throw shooter.

I stopped reading after this -- there are NO FTs in the OP. Giving FTs for A's "violation during a jump ball" opens up a whole new can of worm (BM -- do NOT post some picture related to this).

I am not saying that is ultimately the right answer, but according to the information discussed, that was the answer. I think it is a bad question as many times there are bad questions. Clearly, it appears this is not correct based on what was stated earlier.

Peace

Every Party Has A Pooper ...
 

Party pooper.

If he is not saying that, I am saying that. It was considered to be the right answer at the time of my post.

Peace

It was the right answer according to folks that have taken or were involved in writing the test.

Peace

Good Questions Deserve Good Answers ...
 

I actually liked the question, thought that it was well worded, thought provoking, and a good test of what we know.

I did not like that the correct answer was (probably), "None of the above".

Good questions deserve good answers, answers that help us to learn, or to show what we know.

Forty-five years ago, back in college, when I was preparing to become a teacher, we were taught to never have a multiple choice test question with "None of the above" as any answer.

“None of the above,” as either the correct or incorrect response, increases question difficulty without increasing discrimination between high and low-scoring students. If students can identify a likely option, “none of the above” is eliminated, reducing the number of distractors.

The rule here, while not commonly needed, really isn't complicated. As was cited, the arrow is set when the ball is put at the disposal of the thrower and is set to the team not being granted the throwin.

That makes D the correct answer since A and B both set the arrow at the wrong time and C sets it to the wrong team.

The question and answers are very clear and there is no ambiguity that I can see in the question. Whoever declared B as the right answer just got it wrong.

Of course. Happens every year. Someone trying to be nuanced and does not put all the pieces together properly. I am sure this will be thrown out. It was not my question this year, so I was good.

Peace

What I meant was that once an event occurs that establishes possession, the AP arrow is set. That means that the subsequent throw-in is not an AP throw-in, so the arrow won't be affected by the ball being thrown in (or not).

Just as there are not FTs int he OP, there's also no "subsequent throw-in."

And, ... if there's a T or IP to start the game, that would "establish possession" yet the arrow would NOT be set until the subsequent throw-in begins.

You are way overthinking this. It is just a question on a test, do not add stuff to the question that was not asked.

Peace

I had a similar question on my test, but my question referenced setting the arrow after technical fouls. That is why I referenced free throws.

Twist And Shout (The Beatles, 1964) ...
 

I, more than most, often "twist" situations to explore similar but slightly different situations, but I always point out that it's a "twist", and usually wait until the original situation has been, for the most part, answered. Failing to do that could lead to confusion.

The answer is B. I had this question 2 years ago and I answered C which was right then. So I answered C again and I got it wrong on this years test. Our association director called Kurt Gibson and he confirmed that the answer is B.

Wrong Time ...
 

This casebook play is close to the situation, but not exactly the same.

4.3.3 SITUATION: During the jump to start the game, A1 slaps the ball out of bounds. Before the ball is at B1’s disposal for a throw-in, B2 is charged with a technical foul. RULING: Team A will attempt two free throws followed by a division-line throw-in opposite the table. When the ball is at the disposal of the thrower of Team A, the arrow will be set pointing toward Team B’s basket.

Then both of you are probably wrong.

The correct answer (I believe) is not listed as a multiple choice answer (the AP arrow is set to team A's basket when the ball is placed at team B's disposal for the throw-in), thus D) None of the above.

Just because Kurt Gibson hit one of the most exciting home runs in World Series history, why should we believe him about a basketball rule question? Wait ... I'm being told ... Kirk Gibson? Never mind.

Unfortunately your association director is incorrect. The arrow is set for Team A when the ball is placed at the disposal of Team B for the throw in.



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I'm pretty sure the question and / or answers changed slightly in the past two years (but I don't have the tests handy to check).

In any event -- your C on this year's test is clearly wrong. The state's official answer appears to be B (based on my discussions with certain individuals about the time I asked the question here), but the correct, rule-based answer is D.

Nov. 13/Sat.(12:17pmEST), 2021

Billy:

1) I just now saw your above request because I have been busy this week and will continue to be busy the rest of the weekend.

2) I stopped reading any further comments in order to respond to your request and from what I read I really do not need to read any further. That said, I know that the is a thread regarding this play in the Forum from about 9 or 10 years ago. Monday morning I will look up the thread as well as climb up into the attic (yes, for this play I will climb up into the attic, LOL) and find the actual Casebook Plays (from as early as the late 1980s and early 1990s) from both the NFHS and NCAA Men's/Women's Committees.

3) Have a great weekend and GO BROWNS!! BEAT THE PATRIOTS (and the Kosar cutting Belichick)!!

MTD, Sr.