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-   -   Its Got No Teeth ... (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/105519-its-got-no-teeth.html)

BillyMac Thu Oct 07, 2021 01:52pm
Protecting Star Players ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1045085)
I have no "secret handshakes". I find just being honest about what I'm doing is the best route.
So you would have no problem saying, "Yeah coach, they both hit him and maybe #15 did hit him a split second before #12 did, but #15 is their best player and he has four fouls in the fourth period a close game".

Note: I'm not a big advocate of protecting star players, but I do try to be aware of star player foul totals for 50/50 calls in the last period. Other officials I work with, in my opinion, go over and above to protect such players.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1045085)
My state is not in the habit of putting "secret handshake" material in the annual clinics.
Exactly my point (for presentations to coaches).

BillyMac Thu Oct 07, 2021 02:06pm
More Localities And Levels ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1045077)
Your view is very limited to a small corner of Connecticut. I apparently officiate coaches with a higher basketball IQ. I have definitely officiated a lot more localities and levels than you have.
Absolutely 100% true. Haven't officiated more than a handful of games outside of my little corner of Connecticut (never outside Connecticut) and only two games above the high school varsity level.

And keep in mind that even back when I was working a full varsity high school schedule, I was still working recreation games on off nights (for the money, three kids going to college), and Catholic middle school games on off nights (because I liked the league, the assigner, the officials, the money, and all games close by).

And for the past few years, due to chronic arthritis in my ankle, I have self regulated myself to subvarsity games, which due to my retirement from my day job, and my availability in the mid-afternoon, have mostly been middle school and freshman games.

Raymond Thu Oct 07, 2021 02:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1045086)
Avoiding irritants is not the same as cowardly conduct. It's good game management.



What leads to the unsporting behavior and conduct? Most times it's a biased one sided view, or just anger at a missed call (we all miss calls occasionally), but sometimes it's due to a misinterpretation of a rule and 99% of the time the officials know the application of the rule better than the coach.

Example. Two years ago. Last minute of a close game. Small player in the act of shooting is barreled into by a much larger player like a linebacker hitting a running back. No attempt to block the shot, just a hard body check. Ball doesn't go in basket. I've got intentional foul for excessive contact. Coach questions me about my call, "That's not an intentional foul", as I report. I calmly take and extra step and explain my call to him. He actually agrees that there was excessive contact but that it isn't an intentional foul. I tell him that by definition, excessive contact is an intentional foul. I guess that didn't persuade him because as I walk back to administer the free throw, he questions me again, "That's not an intentional foul". So turn around to calmly talk to him again, leading with, "Was that contact excessive?". He replies that it was excessive and I tell him again that by definition, excessive contact is an intentional foul, and I walk back to administer the free throws with my partner. As we're lining up for the free throws he now proceeds to yell at me from across the gym, "You're wrong. That's not an intentional foul". Technical foul.

Definitely unsporting behavior and conduct. What lead to that? Arguing about what a rule is.
The T is for unsporting behavior, not for not knowing the rule.

Since you already operate on the premise that coaches don't know the rules, shouldn't you have been able to avoid that "irritant"? Did worrying about what coaches might think prevent the situation from happening?

Raymond Thu Oct 07, 2021 02:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1045087)
So you would have no problem saying, "Yeah coach, they both hit him and maybe #15 did hit him a split second before #12 did, but #15 is their best player and he has four fouls in the fourth period a close game".

Note: I'm not a big advocate of protecting star players, but I do try to be aware of star player foul totals for 50/50 calls in the last period. Other officials I work with, in my opinion, go over and above to protect such players.



Exactly my point (for presentations to coaches).
Since your Little Corner apparently has a problem with coaches knowing the rules maybe your locality should change up the ineffective "coaches only" training presentation and have them receive the same one you get. And maybe your locality shouldn't be including "secret handshake" training with its officials. Coaches, players, and fans are not stupid. The recognize when officials are blatantly calling the game differently for stars or for blow-outs.

Raymond Thu Oct 07, 2021 02:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1045087)
So you would have no problem saying, "Yeah coach, they both hit him and maybe #15 did hit him a split second before #12 did, but #15 is their best player and he has four fouls in the fourth period a close game".
....
You are way too verbose.

"I had a foul on #12, maybe I got it wrong".

You pose questions to me like I'm new to this and trying to figure things out and your giving me examples of things I never fathomed.

I answer direct questions with as few words as possible. I don't conduct rules clinics on the sidelines. If a coach starts a whole bunch of BS after I respond to them I say, "You asked me a question, I answered it" then turn my attentions fully back to court. I'm not worried about what a coach is thinking at that point.

BillyMac Thu Oct 07, 2021 02:26pm
Didn't Know The Rule ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1045089)
The T is for unsporting behavior, not for not knowing the rule.
If the coach had known the definition of a intentional foul, which he obviously didn't, then there would have been no technical foul because he agreed with me that the contact was excessive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1045089)
Since you already operate on the premise that coaches don't know the rules, shouldn't you have been able to avoid that "irritant"?
Not sure how? Knowing that he didn't know the rule, I twice calmly explained to him the definition of an intentional foul (that it included excessive contact), once from a step toward him from reporting area, and again face to face.

I am very patient with coaches (I coached for twenty-five years). I don't give out technical fouls like penny candy, nor do I falsely pride myself on not charging technical fouls, as some do. I am very confident in my game management skills, and I am evaluated as such by both evaluators and partners.

I honestly don't know how I could have avoided that technical foul. The coach was well behaved for thirty minutes. For some reason he decided to die on that hill.

BillyMac Thu Oct 07, 2021 02:33pm
Little Secret ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1045091)
"I had a foul on #12, maybe I got it wrong".
The whole truth ...

Of course we would never say, "Yeah coach, they both hit him and maybe #15 did hit him a split second before #12 did, but #15 is their best player and he has four fouls in the fourth period a close game", to a coach in a real game, but I'm sure that some of us have heard this philosophy at our officials-only meetings, if not "officially", maybe at the pub after our games.

Answering, "I had a foul on #12, maybe I got it wrong", while knowing that there's actually more to it, is our little secret.

Players know it. Coaches know it. Fans know it. But it's never talked about in the presence of non-officials.

BillyMac Thu Oct 07, 2021 02:52pm
Educational Contact ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1045090)
... problem with coaches knowing the rules maybe your locality should change up the ineffective "coaches only" training presentation and have them receive the same one you get.
The only "educational" contact we have with coaches is regarding new rule changes and Points of Emphasis.

It's only an hour each year, and yet we have problems getting coaches to attend. Penalty for not attending is not eligible for annual sportsmanship awards. And each team only has to send one coach, even if it's the freshman coach.

After a few years of coaching, I realized that I didn't really understand all the rules, and was getting a lot of technical fouls. So I took the local rookie officiating class only to learn the rules. Took the test, passed the test, and then discovered that I could make some extra money officiating basketball (Connecticut teachers were poorly paid back then). Coaching lasted for "only" twenty-five years, forty years later and I'm still officiating.

JRutledge Thu Oct 07, 2021 02:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1045079)
Nice post JRutledge.

Officiate differently? No. Agree.

Why are we worried? Worried may be too strong a word. The issue is that coaches often misunderstanding rule changes or points of emphases can spark "irritating" conversations.

Sounds like JRutledge was able to use his excellent game management skills to "defuse" his goaltending conversation, but it would have been nice if it never happened (don't know how to achieve that, can't live with coaches preseason meetings, can't live without them). In somebody else's game it could have been the straw that broke the camel's back. Tea time. One lump, or two?
It was not hard to tell the coach, "That is not the rule." Moved on and it did not change the call to his satisfaction. I did not have the time to give a rules clinic.

Peace

Raymond Thu Oct 07, 2021 02:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1045094)
The only "educational" contact we have with coaches is regarding new rule changes and Points of Emphasis.



It's only an hour each year, and yet we have problems getting coaches to attend. Penalty for not attending is not eligible for annual sportsmanship awards. And each team only has to send one coach, even if it's the freshman coach.



My first year coaching, I soon realized that I didn't really understand all the rules, and was getting a lot of technical fouls. So I took the local rookie officiating class only to learn the rules. Took the test, passed the test, and then discovered that I could make some extra money officiating basketball. Coaching lasted for "only" twenty-five years, forty years later and I'm still officiating.
This portion of our conversation only happened because you said coaches need to receive a different presentation than officials. I said I like it that we all receive the same presentation down here in Virginia.

If your schools are not taking the training presentations seriously, why are you so hell-bent on defending that process?

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

BillyMac Thu Oct 07, 2021 03:17pm
Mandatory ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1045096)
If your schools are not taking the training presentations seriously, why are you so hell-bent on defending that process?
I'm not. It's not a great system. Attendance is only required by our local officials organization, not the state association. Those that do not send a team representative will not be eligible for the sportsmanship awards, but that's not why they come, they come because they see some value in the presentation.

I would like to see the state association (CIAC) make attendance mandatory, even if it's only for one team representative.

And it's the twenty-first century. So it doesn't have to be in person. It could be a Zoom (or whatever) presentation.

Even a flyer emailed (maybe with attached slides or video) to each team (in addition to the live or virtual presentation) would be better than what we have now.

All local IAABO interpreters will have access to a professionally produced IAABO "new rules" video, just send it to each team (in addition to the live or virtual presentation).

Raymond Thu Oct 07, 2021 03:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1045097)
I'm not. It's not a great system. Attendance is only required by our local officials organization, not the state association. Those that do send a team representative don't do so to be eligible for the sportsmanship awards, but because they see some value in the presentation.



I would like to see the state association (CIAC) make attendance mandatory, even if it's only for one team representative.



And it's the twenty-first century. So it doesn't have to be in person. It could be a Zoom (or whatever) presentation.
My state, preseason rules clinic is mandatory for schools and officials. We all receive the same presentation in the same format. When these things were done in person, coaches and officials attended the exact same clinics. If the state wants special attention on a subject, coaches and officials all receive the same information.

A preseason rules clinic by the state is not the same as association training where the assigner or supervisor tells his officials his philosophy and how he wants certain things handled.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

BillyMac Thu Oct 07, 2021 03:27pm
Game Management ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1045095)
It was not hard to tell the coach, "That is not the rule." Moved on and it did not change the call to his satisfaction.
No such luck in my game. Still can't figure out how I could have handled it better. He was well behaved for thirty minutes. Changed like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. In a close game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1045086)
Two years ago. Last minute of a close game. Small player in the act of shooting is barreled into by a much larger player like a linebacker hitting a running back. No attempt to block the shot, just a hard body check. Ball doesn't go in basket. I've got intentional foul for excessive contact. Coach questions me about my call, "That's not an intentional foul", as I report. I calmly take an extra step and explain my call to him. He actually agrees that there was excessive contact but that it isn't an intentional foul. I tell him that by definition, excessive contact is an intentional foul. I guess that didn't persuade him because as I walk back to administer the free throw, he questions me again, "That's not an intentional foul". So turn around to calmly talk to him again, leading with, "Was that contact excessive?". He replies that it was excessive and I tell him again that by definition, excessive contact is an intentional foul, and I walk back to administer the free throws with my partner. As we're lining up for the free throws he now proceeds to yell at me from across the gym, "You're wrong. That's not an intentional foul". Technical foul.

BillyMac Thu Oct 07, 2021 03:36pm
Mandatory ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1045098)
My state, preseason rules clinic is mandatory for schools and officials. We all receive the same presentation in the same format. When these things were done in person, coaches and officials attended the exact same clinics. If the state wants special attention on a subject, coaches and officials all receive the same information. A preseason rules clinic by the state is not the same as association training where the assigner or supervisor tells his officials his philosophy and how he wants certain things handled.
Sounds like a great system. Everybody on the same page. Wish we had the same here.

And your last sentence is why we haven't, in the past, had the exact same presentation to coaches and officials. Assigners and interpreters in the past have taught officials philosophy at this preseason new rules meeting, which we treated as any other meeting. That's changed over the past few years as we're using more "standardized" resources from both the NFHS and IAABO (Power Points, etc.), absent of any local (or individual) philosophies (secrets), for our preseason new rules meeting.

BillyMac Thu Oct 07, 2021 06:00pm
State Tournament ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1045097)
Those that do not send a team representative will not be eligible for the sportsmanship awards ...
We also tie our sportsmanship awards to whether, or not, local coaches send in their "votes" for the state tournament.

Many local coaches don't send in "votes" if they know that they won't make the state tournament (40% wins). Our assigner hates that because that leaves some of our local officials off the state list, and my local board gets fewer representatives in the state tournament than do the other five local boards that have local coaches that do a more complete job of voting.

Don't come to the preseason meeting, or don't vote for the state tournament, and that team isn't eligible for a sportsmanship award, even if charged with no unsporting technical fouls all season long.

Seems silly.

Are these carrots or sticks? If carrots, how tasty are the carrots? If sticks, how painful are the sticks?

Silly monkeys.


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