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  #76 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 05, 2021, 12:04pm
Courageous When Prudent
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Already answered (but Raymond already knew that).



For inexperienced officials.

... and the crux of this issue.

You don't know what you don't know.
So exactly what I've already said 4 times in this thread and have also said in multiple posts to you in other threads? Yet you've continued this gaslighting charade that you and your state use the NFHS vanished POE as your citation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
If old interpretations disappear, then follow the rules and case plays as written. If they are open to interpretation, then organizations/localities need to decide how to handle the situations.

I really don't think it's that serious.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
No it won't be the wild West. It'll be what it had always been, an officiating world where state, local, or association-specific interpretations are used when there's ambiguity in the rule and case books and no current interpretations to address the issue have been published. It's always been like that around here and always will be.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
Last week's pregame fight was adjudicated properly just as the rule and case books state, why does my group need to make it a POE for this season?

Our problem with announcers has been elevated to the conference ADs and the state HS board. Since the rule book doesn't specifically address that issue, we will await guidance.

You still haven't addressed your stance that all POEs ever written need to be emphasized every season. Or are you just dense when it comes to the meaning of the phrase "Points of Emphasis"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
"Show it to me in the regs."

If a school asks for clarification on a ruling that is not clearly and unambiguously addressed in the current year rulebook, casebook, or published interpretations, it's gets elevated to the state. PERIOD

And from that point on we tell coaches/ADs that "the VHSL (state body) has ruled....." There is no mention of the NFHS. We don't care what basis the VHSL uses for its ruling, that's their business. It could be a 30 year-old vanished interpretation, it could be a 25 year-old POE that no longer needs to be emphasized, or it could be a common sense decision.
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  #77 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 05, 2021, 12:07pm
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Citation ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
... you and your state use the NFHS vanished POE as your citation.
Not quite, we use the vanished POE as a guideline, and use the unsporting conduct not limited to as the rule citation.

To me, it's not a black or white issue, but a gray issue that is nuanced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
if you know it, and there have been no relevant rule changes, or interpretation changes, to invalidate such, use it, especially when you have a rule citation (unsporting conduct not limited to) to back it up.
... if there is a need.

Not all valid POE's need to be resurrected.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Oct 05, 2021 at 03:09pm.
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  #78 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 05, 2021, 12:08pm
Courageous When Prudent
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Connecticut has a written IAABO state board "reg", approved by the state association, regarding the congregating on the school logo problem. We do not have a circle the wagons "reg" specifically in writing anywhere, so we rely on the NFHS guidelines, guidelines that originally were a NFHS Point of Emphasis, but are no longer "emphasized", and of course, are no longer in the current book (but the underlying rule still is).

If I were to say to a coach, or a site director, "Don't let your players circle around their opponents during the layup lines" and received a response, "Show it to me in the regs", I wouldn't go into a long dissertation regarding the validity of a old Point of Emphasis no longer the current book. I would simply say, "It's in the "regs" as unsporting conduct".
....
I work in a Fed state, so our coaches have access to the current NFHS publications, so lying to them (which I wouldn't do regardless) would only end up making my commissioner look bad.

I guess since you are in an IAABO state, you can make up non-existent citations and not have to worry about a coach/AD pulling up the rules digitally.
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  #79 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 05, 2021, 12:10pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Agree.

While your local, or state, association successfully dealt with this issue previous to the Point of Emphasis, independently without the NFHS, my state association only decided to deal with this issue after the NFHS Point of Emphasis was published.

Our big Connecticut problem was not the "circle the wagons" problem, but the congregating on the school logo problem.

Because it was a one and done Point of Emphasis, not appearing in the current book (other than as an unsporting "not limited to" citation) our officials are reminded of this every year as a Connecticut IAABO guideline:

Team members are not allowed to congregate at division line, or on school logo, during introductions.

Your state might have been one (or the only) of the states that caused that the NFHS to deal with this issue.
I doubt it. Just was not an issue in the first place. Was not widespread in the first place in Illinois. It was addressed and the culture changed when we were told to stop it. A lot of things that happen are not widespread that are addressed. A lot of things happen somewhere a committee member is and they feel they need to change it for everyone. That is fine, because it could spark up somewhere else, but not one of our issues. Information was gotten out to coaches and schools and often we never had to do a thing as officials. Not everything is at the game level. Some things are discussed with schools about that particular sport. Same with uniforms and Illinois had a big issue with uniforms because we had an administrator that cared a lot about that rule. Otherwise, it was not a problem for officials unless we did not want to personally get dinged for not following his directive. We followed his directive and the Board of Directors got involved and the situation went away. See how that works, I said nothing about the NF at all in that explanation.

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  #80 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 05, 2021, 12:16pm
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Judgement ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
lying to them ... non-existent citations
Check your current rulebook:

10-5-1: Bench personnel, including the head coach, must not: Commit an unsporting foul. This includes, but is not limited to ...
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  #81 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 05, 2021, 12:18pm
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Bug In The Ear ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
I doubt it.
Somebody had to put this bug into the ear of the NFHS.
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  #82 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 05, 2021, 12:19pm
Courageous When Prudent
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Check your current rulebook:

10-5-1: Bench personnel, including the head coach, must not: Commit an unsporting foul. This includes, but is not limited to ...
You said your basis was an old POE. That's what this whole conversation is about. If you can reference the existing rules language why are you adding "vanished" nonsense to the equation.

You frequently change up your words once put on the spot about the accuracy/honesty of your statements.
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  #83 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 05, 2021, 12:43pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
You said your basis was an old POE. That's what this whole conversation is about. If you can reference the existing rules language why are you adding "vanished" nonsense to the equation.

You frequently change up your words once put on the spot about the accuracy/honesty of your statements.
As a passive observer, I'd say to you ease up.

Here's the way I understand what Billy is saying.

Suppose in 1892, the NFHS put a point of emphasis in the book that said we're seeing way too much unsporting conduct. Please enforce the sportsmanship rules. We want technical fouls called whenever anybody hangs on the peach basket or if a coach throws down his jacket or if the team gathers at midcourt.

In 1893, sportsmanship has improved so they drop it as a point of emphasis. But at least for a while everybody understands that these things are examples of TF for unsporting conduct.

Then they get rid of peach baskets. So that part doesn't apply anymore.

And then Connecticut issues a regulation about gathering at midcourt.

So the only thing we're left with is wondering, is throwing your jacket still an example of a technical foul and outside of Connecticut is gathering at midcourt still an example of a technical foul. There's no POE anymore; hasn't even been for 128 years; but vets have been telling young'uns to do it. And somewhere MTD has that rulebook ready to produce on demand.

It certainly can be included by judgment, but must it? Billy seems to say yes. I'm not sure what you'd say to that other than you're very angry that Billy says yes so maybe you mean no?
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  #84 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 05, 2021, 12:49pm
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Underlying Rule ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
You said your basis was an old POE. That's what this whole conversation is about. If you can reference the existing rules language why are you adding "vanished" nonsense to the equation.
The underlying rule has to still exist for an old Point of Emphasis to be still valid. The underlying rule was always there, if not, the old Point of Emphasis becomes invalid.

10-5-1: Bench personnel, including the head coach, must not: Commit an unsporting foul. This includes, but is not limited to ...

In this specific case, while the rule does offer some examples of unsporting conduct, it doesn't (obviously) list all examples.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Highlight, but also to often expound upon and clarify.
The old Point of Emphasis however, does list a few additional examples.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
... the content of such, especially the purpose and intent, and in some cases, the specific "interpretations", may still be of value, not just to be tossed into the trash and forgotten.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Oct 05, 2021 at 01:38pm.
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  #85 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 05, 2021, 12:53pm
Courageous When Prudent
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by youngump View Post
As a passive observer, I'd say to you ease up.

Here's the way I understand what Billy is saying.

Suppose in 1892, the NFHS put a point of emphasis in the book that said we're seeing way too much unsporting conduct. Please enforce the sportsmanship rules. We want technical fouls called whenever anybody hangs on the peach basket or if a coach throws down his jacket or if the team gathers at midcourt.

In 1893, sportsmanship has improved so they drop it as a point of emphasis. But at least for a while everybody understands that these things are examples of TF for unsporting conduct.

Then they get rid of peach baskets. So that part doesn't apply anymore.

And then Connecticut issues a regulation about gathering at midcourt.

So the only thing we're left with is wondering, is throwing your jacket still an example of a technical foul and outside of Connecticut is gathering at midcourt still an example of a technical foul. There's no POE anymore; hasn't even been for 128 years; but vets have been telling young'uns to do it. And somewhere MTD has that rulebook ready to produce on demand.

It certainly can be included by judgment, but must it? Billy seems to say yes. I'm not sure what you'd say to that other than you're very angry that Billy says yes so maybe you mean no?
Billy's citation for not gathering at midcourt is same as mine, his state issued guidelines (my state puts it in the clinic every year). But he has spent XXX amount of days telling us the authority we should cite to a coach is a 10-20 POE/Interpretation that is not part of the current publications.

If I'm doing something b/c that's how I interpret it should be done, then I tell the coach or my supervisor exactly that. I don't play word-games or fudge the truth about what's going on. Coaches have access to the rule and case books; I'm not going to blow smoke up their butts.
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  #86 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 05, 2021, 01:01pm
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Apple Baskets ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by youngump View Post
Suppose in 1892, the NFHS put a point of emphasis in the book that said we're seeing way too much unsporting conduct. Please enforce the sportsmanship rules. We want technical fouls called whenever anybody hangs on the peach basket ... In 1893, sportsmanship has improved so they drop it as a point of emphasis. But at least for a while everybody understands that these things are examples of TF for unsporting conduct. Then they get rid of peach baskets.
It was actually Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. who suggested to James Naismith that he no longer use peach baskets because apple baskets were stronger.

Quote:
Originally Posted by youngump View Post
It certainly can be included by judgment, but must it? Billy seems to say yes.
Actually, not necessarily yes. Only if needed (teaching, reference "citation", etc.).

Many old Points or Emphasis don't need to be resurrected, even if proven to still be valid. I would never suggest that every official should research every single Point of Emphasis since 1893.

But if one is aware of a "good" old one (that hasn't been deemed invalid), and has a purpose (teaching, reference "citation", etc.) for using it, then certainly use it.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Oct 05, 2021 at 05:17pm.
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  #87 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 05, 2021, 01:11pm
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Unsporting Conduct ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
Billy's citation for not gathering at midcourt is same as mine, his state issued guidelines (my state puts it in the clinic every year). But he has spent XXX amount of days telling us the authority we should cite to a coach is a 10-20 POE/Interpretation that is not part of the current publications. I don't play word-games or fudge the truth about what's going on.
Not what I said (remember we don't have a published guideline in Connecticut for this specific issue below).

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
If I were to say to a coach, or a site director, "Don't let your players circle around their opponents during the layup lines" and received a response, "Show it to me in the regs", I wouldn't go into a long dissertation regarding the validity of a old Point of Emphasis no longer the current book. I would simply say, "It's in the "regs" as unsporting conduct".
"It's in the rules as unsporting conduct" is not a word game, nor is it fudging the truth. It's a fact and the truth.

The example of "circling the wagons" has only been mentioned once (as far as I can recall) in my little corner of Connecticut meetings, the year it was a NFHS Point of Emphasis, and it was discussed only because it was a NFHS Point of Emphasis.

And it has never been announced as invalid due to some statute of limitations (it hasn't been mentioned at all in meetings since its one and done publishing).

Yet most officials still enforce it, usually as a unofficial non-written warning (Don't do it again).

How do they know to enforce it? Do they know about the old Point of Emphasis? Maybe, but many know about it because they observe more experienced officials enforcing it.

If any young'un official (not a coach or site director) questioned me about it, I would first point them to the current rule (10-5-1) and only then tell them about the old Point of Emphasis that specifically referenced this as an example of pregame unsporting conduct.

The citation would be the current rule; the example would be from the old Point of Emphasis, the only source for this specific example here in Connecticut.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Oct 05, 2021 at 03:10pm.
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  #88 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 05, 2021, 01:21pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
The same was also stated at the NFHS State Rules Interpreters meeting.

There, the reason given was publishing limits...that they have a target number of pages in the books. She said that, for every case they add, something has to come out. So, they try to pick ones that are not as likely to be needed.

Old cases remain valid unless there has been a rule change or a new interpretation that negates the old case.

In this digital age, I can't see why they can't have an unabridged version of the case book available on the app including all valid case with an abridged version in print to include a target number.

I have been saying this for years! The NFHS and NCAA Men's/Women's Committees do have the resources to maintain an online collection of every Rule Book and all Casebook/Approved Ruling going back to the NBC days. Lawyers have Westlaw to access online why can't the NFHS and NCAA provide such a service.

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  #89 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 05, 2021, 01:31pm
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Cranky Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
I have been saying this for years!
Isn't it time for your mid-afternoon nap? You better nap or you'll be cranky when you go to the restaurant for the early bird dinner special at 4:00 p.m.

Or do people your age call it supper?
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  #90 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 05, 2021, 01:55pm
Courageous When Prudent
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Not what I said (remember we don't have a published guideline in Connecticut for this specific issue below).



"It's in the rules as unsporting conduct" is not a word game, nor is it fudging the truth. It's a fact and the truth.

...
No, it's an interpretation of unsporting behavior. It's not specifically in the rule book. I have no problem stating something is my interpretation. I don't fudge the truth to bolster my case.
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