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  #121 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 14, 2021, 12:22pm
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Concussion Protocols ...

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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
We have a concussion protocol and it is rare I have ever had to invoke it during a basketball game. We have to file a report if we send a kid out for a possible concussion or "concussion-like symptoms" regardless of the sport.
Connecticut officials are very fortunate in that we never have to deal with concussions. Several years ago the State legislature considered giving officials the responsibility of dealing with concussions.

Luckily, we have an officials arm (CIAC Officials Association, $13.00 annual fee) of our state interscholastic sport governing body (CIAC) that attended public hearings and lobbied for us. As a result, the State legislature decided that only health care professionals and coaches will determine whether, or not, players have been concussed, and how to deal with such.

Coaches at all levels of interscholastic sports (even middle school) must be trained (and periodically retrained) in concussion protocols. As officials we are told to only observe and advise, and we are actually told to never to use the word "concussion" in describing an injury to a coach, instead it's more like, "Coach. Check out number twenty-two. He may be injured". After that it's 100% up to the health care professional (trainer) and/or coach to decide how to move forward, officials have nothing to do with anything concussion related.
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“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Sep 14, 2021 at 12:40pm.
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  #122 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 14, 2021, 12:38pm
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Permanent Casebook Plays ...

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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
I simply think this supports what we would have likely done anyway.
I like the "overturning" of the old (and controversial) Point of Emphasis, and I like that there are now a few "permanent" casebook plays to refer to for guidance.

With the old Point of Emphasis now moot, I'm now not quite certain how the NFHS wants us to handle an elbow in movement, but not excessive, striking an opponent in the head, it used to be be an intentional foul in the old Point of Emphasis. The new casebook play only describes making contact with an opponent above the shoulders with elbows that are excessively moving, calling for an intentional foul.

But I've been to lots and lots of rodeos, and around the block many, many times, so I'm pretty sure that I will be able to figure it out when it happens in my games. That's why basketball officials get paid the big bucks.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Sep 14, 2021 at 12:41pm.
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  #123 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 14, 2021, 12:55pm
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We do not deal with concussions other than observing and reporting incidents where a player might have concussions. We do not diagnose them and it is required by state law to be documented. Players play based on medical professional's positions and we just let it be known that there might be an issue. And we have to pass a concussion protocol exam to keep our license every 3 years.

But again in basketball, it is very rare. In football, it is much more common and you know when a kid might be likely "dinged" by their behavior after a hit or contact. All we do is report when a player leaves the game and report when they are coming back in. We do not diagnose anything. If the medical professional says they have not experienced a concussion we let them come back in the game. Just like you decide if a player is too hurt to continue immediately. Ultimately someone decides if they are medically cleared to play or not. Even the coach cannot sign off on a player playing without information from the medical professional. And since you love the rulebook, it is stated in the rulebook.

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  #124 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 14, 2021, 01:29pm
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Not My Job ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Even the coach cannot sign off on a player playing without information from the medical professional. And since you love the rulebook, it is stated in the rulebook.
2-8-5: The officials must: Immediately remove a player from the game who exhibits signs, symptoms or behaviors consistent with a concussion as in 3-3-8. (See NFHS Suggested Guidelines for Management of Concussion in Sports.)

3-3-8: Any player who exhibits signs, symptoms or behaviors consistent with a concussion (such as loss of consciousness, headache, dizziness, confusion, or balance problems) must be immediately removed from the game and must not return to play until cleared by an appropriate health care professional. (See NFHS Suggested Guidelines for Management of Concussion in Sports.)


Here in Connecticut, we ignore these NFHS rules. Officials receive absolutely no concussion protocol training. None. We don't even review the NFHS Suggested Guidelines for Management of Concussion in Sports.

By State law (that trumps the NFHS), properly trained and certified coaches and/or health care professionals (trainers) make all the concussion, or concussion-like symptoms decisions, not officials. Does the player have a concussion, or concussion like symptoms? Does the player come out of the game? Can the player renter the game? Can the player participate in the next game? All decided by coaches and/or health care professionals (trainers), not officials.

If there is no health care professional (trainer) present, as in almost all middle school games, and a lot of freshman games, it's all on the coaches, including allowing, or not allowing, said player to reenter.

As I said earlier, the only thing Connecticut officials can do is to stop the game and say, "Hey coach. Check out number twenty-four. She may be hurt".

Well worth my CIAC Officials Association $13.00 annual fee. Since they lobbied in support of officials at the State legislature, nobody ever complains about these dues anymore (as some did in the past). One less headache we have to worry about.

Note: CIAC Officials Association $13.00 annual fee (mandatory for all local IAABO board members) pays for background checks for new officials, gets us into all regular season sports, for all three seasons, for free (nice if one has children, or grandchildren, playing in interscholastic sports), and gets us into all basketball state tournament games for free (lets me observe and "yank chains").
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Sep 14, 2021 at 02:47pm.
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  #125 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 14, 2021, 03:34pm
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All wonderful, but all I said is we report the incidents, that is pretty much it. If a player is hurt we already remove them from the game. If is involves CLS, then they just have to inform us we are coming back. We report similar to a teacher that can report abuse or other things with children. Simple and not a big deal honestly. It rarely comes up.

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  #126 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 14, 2021, 04:01pm
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Legal Liability ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
... we report the incidents, that is pretty much it. If a player is hurt we already remove them from the game. If is involves CLS, then they just have to inform us we are coming back. We report similar to a teacher that can report abuse or other things with children.
Do you have a responsibility, as an official, to immediately remove from the game any player who exhibits signs, symptoms or behaviors consistent with a concussion (loss of consciousness, headache, dizziness, confusion, or balance problems), and/or to not allow them to return to play until cleared by an appropriate health care professional (not the coach)?

If so, that may come with some legal liability issues if an official doesn't remove such a player from the game, or allows said player to return with just a coaches recommendation (as in a middle school game), and they suffer more serious injuries as a result of continuing to play, or because of being allowed to reenter. That could be viewed as legally negligent behavior.

Thanks to our State legislature, we don't have that problem here in Connecticut. If a coach allows an inured player to continue, or to renter, that's 100% on him, and he can get sued, he's trained, he's certified, and not covered by Good Samaritan laws.

Not a Connecticut official's job legally. We're not trained, we're not certified. No legal liability. Thank you State legislature.

Also, regarding teachers reporting abuse, it may certainly be different in your area, but in Connecticut, and in many other states, teachers (and school administrators) are mandatory reporters. It's not that they CAN report suspected abuse, it's that they MUST report suspected abuse, or be subject to criminal arrest for not reporting (up the legal ladder) suspected abuse, and we've had a few arrests in Connecticut for such irresponsible and negligent behavior. Same mandatory reporting laws also apply to doctors, nurses, social workers, etc.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Sep 14, 2021 at 04:19pm.
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  #127 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 14, 2021, 04:26pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Do you have a responsibility, as an official, to immediately remove from the game any player who exhibits signs, symptoms or behaviors consistent with a concussion (loss of consciousness, headache, dizziness, confusion, or balance problems), and to not allow them to return to play until cleared by an appropriate health care professional (not the coach)?

If so, that may come with some legal liability issues if an official doesn't remove such a player from the game, or allows said player to return with just a coaches recommendation (as in a middle school game), and they suffer more serious injuries as a result of continuing to play, or because of being allowed to reenter. That could be viewed as legally negligent behavior.
Legal liability comes when you do not follow the state law. This is not a personal or IHSA standard, this is a state law that involved officials in the reporting. No, we are not to go looking for signs, but if a player fell on their head and gets up walking towards the stands, they can be removed from the game as if any time there is an injury. That is why states have different laws and precedents of what takes place. All we do is report the incident and it is on the schools to explain their reasoning to higher-ups if they are let back in the game. The schools have an entirely different procedure they have to follow in order to be in compliance. Even if a school does not have a trainer or some medical doctor, then that just makes the entry of the game problematic. But if they say, "Mr. Williams allowed him to play" and they find out Mr. Williams is not a registered medical professional that can diagnose concussions, then that is on the school. We do not verify their credentials and doubt seriously we would even be liable if we reported the incident. Even if you did not report the incident, we do not have access to players that teams do. Part of the reason you have insurance in the first place is to deal with issues of liability. That did not change because of a law. It was already there. It is a requirement by law to have trainers and medical people at all contests with youth. There are things they have to do regardless of our role which honestly did not change. I am saying this as a person that officiates football and once did baseball and softball.

There was a famous case where an official in Texas ran into a football coach and the coach was in a coma. Long story short the coach got hurt and was the only one hospitalized, but the insurance company went after the officials for not enforcing the sideline rules. That is not state law, but because the officials were accused of being negligent by the insurance company, they had to deal with a lawsuit. The lawsuit was thrown out, but involved some time to litigate. That had nothing to do with a state law but an accusation of negligence. I am sure if someone thought you did not stop the game because of an injury and the injury was bad, I am sure you would could be sued either way if someone felt you did not stop the game properly. You are not a doctor there either. And I work for an insurance company so I can tell you that if liability is in question, they can and will sue to regain their costs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Thanks to our State legislature, we don't have that problem here in Connecticut. If a coach allows an inured player to continue, or to renter, that's 100% on him, and he can get sued, he's trained, he's certified, and not covered by Good Samaritan laws.

Not a Connecticut official's job legally. We're not trained, we're not certified.

Also, regarding teachers reporting abuse, it may certainly be different in your area, but in Connecticut, and in many other states, teachers are mandatory reporters. It's not that they CAN report suspected abuse, it's that they MUST report suspected abuse, or be subject to criminal arrest for not reporting suspected abuse (up the legal ladder), and we've had a few arrests in Connecticut for such irresponsible and negligent behavior.
When Hank Gathers died, multiple doctors and administrators got sued. Many people had nothing to do with his death or diagnosis and that included doctors in the gym at the time. I do not know what problem you think you are absolved from, I bet if you let a kid play that might have been suffering from something and they get further hurt or die, someone could decide you are not doing your job. Again, it does not mean they are right, but nothing you said eliminates your potential liability or assumption of liability. A law just has to be challenged in court. Until then, the procedure is irrelvant.

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Last edited by JRutledge; Tue Sep 14, 2021 at 04:29pm.
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  #128 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 14, 2021, 04:41pm
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Billable Hours ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
... if a player fell on their head and gets up walking towards the stands, they can be removed from the game ...
CAN or MUST? Big difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Legal liability comes when you do not follow the state law.
Civil law legal liability.

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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
I bet if you let a kid play that might have been suffering from something and they get further hurt or die, someone could decide you are not doing your job ... potential liability or assumption of liability ...
Agree. In civil court, anybody can sue anybody for anything at any time. It's the American way. Even if one in the right, one still has to hire an attorney, and billable hours aren't inexpensive.

I still believe that my State legislature did officials a big favor by relieving officials of all responsibilities regarding concussions, and putting it on the coaches and health care professionals.

The State law has to (hopefully) carry some weight in civil court.

It was considered a big win for Connecticut officials when it happened several years ago.

"Hey coach. Check number thirty-four. He looks a little wobbly", ends the legal responsibility of Connecticut officials.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Sep 14, 2021 at 04:59pm.
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  #129 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 14, 2021, 05:18pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
CAN or MUST? Big difference.
You are right. We are not responsible for kids that have a concussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Civil law legal liability.
Yes, no one is going to jail over this unless there is a law saying you must do so and the violation is a criminal statute. Similar to like my profession you can be civilly liable for fraud, but you can be criminally liable as well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Agree. In civil court, anybody can sue anybody for anything at any time. It's the American way. Even if one in the right, one still has to hire an attorney, and billable hours aren't inexpensive.
I am sure the law in Connecticut can be challenged in court, similar to other recent laws passed by state legislation (masks, abortion, voting rights, school choice and legality of who can decide to do these things).

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Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
I still believe that my State legislature did officials a big favor by relieving officials of all responsibilities regarding concussions, and putting it on the coaches and health care professionals.
OK. Was not disputing anything your state does. Just telling you what our state does.

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Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
The State law has to (hopefully) carry some weight in civil court.
State laws are overturned by courts all the time. It is based on if the law was written did not violate other legal statutes or precedent. Not a lawyer but I know when the state law was written here, it actually was said to help eliminate our responsibility and put a lot on the schools. Some lawyers asked for us to ask for more detail when a player was to reenter the game to cover themselves more.

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Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
It was considered a big win for Connecticut officials when it happened several years ago.

"Hey coach. Check number thirty-four. He looks a little wobbly", ends the legal responsibility of Connecticut officials.
Well, then you guys are doing the right thing for you. I live in a much more populated state with many more school districts so we had to do something I am sure to help protect the players that are students from being forced to play without a check-up or playing because they want to hide a possible injury. Either way I am good with what we are asked to do because telling a coach a kid is wobbly is not something I want to tell a coach. And again I do football where head injuries are common. I am cool with what we are asked to do.

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Last edited by JRutledge; Tue Sep 14, 2021 at 05:20pm.
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  #130 (permalink)  
Old Wed Sep 15, 2021, 11:16am
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Sticks And Stones ...

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Was not disputing anything your state does. Just telling you what our state does.
My state is better than your state. Na na na na na.
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  #131 (permalink)  
Old Wed Sep 15, 2021, 11:46am
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My state is better than your state. Na na na na na.
In basketball? OK.

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  #132 (permalink)  
Old Wed Sep 15, 2021, 11:49am
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Hoosiers ...

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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
In basketball? OK.
Indiana? No chance we're better.
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  #133 (permalink)  
Old Wed Sep 15, 2021, 11:54am
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Continental Basketball Association Hamden Bics ...

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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
In basketball?
Connecticut Sun? University of Connecticut Huskies? Does female basketball count?
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Wed Sep 15, 2021 at 11:58am.
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  #134 (permalink)  
Old Wed Sep 15, 2021, 12:04pm
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This is not a serious question.....but here it goes....

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Indiana? No chance we're better.
I guess the question I have is better than what? Do you have more D1 and pro players? Do you have a more historical tradition across the board?

If the UConn Women's team recruited just Connecticut, would they even be a power?

I have worked the Nike Cup that is in Chicago at McCormick Place and I have yet to see a bunch of players going to top programs from Connecticut.

So what is the metric for "better?" You have a different law that makes little or no difference in our lives? LOL!!!! OK.

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  #135 (permalink)  
Old Wed Sep 15, 2021, 12:31pm
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Higher Cost Of Living ...

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So what is the metric for "better?" You have a different law that makes little or no difference in our lives? LOL!!!! OK.
Better game fees?
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