Fun With A Hip Check …

BillyMac

BillyMac wrote
... but I do care about the rationale ... maybe signal confusion has absolutely nothing to do with the recent NFHS signal change?

Maybe the NFHS simply saw some signal redundancy and fixed it, with the change having absolutely nothing to do with (punch/count basket) signal confusion.

Meanwhile, the NCAA studied the (punch/count basket) signal confusion matter and simply decided that the slight possibility of (punch/count basket) signal confusion didn't warrant the elimination of the punch signal.

JRutledge

BillyMac wrote
I don't care if they don't talk to each other, but I do care about the rationale.

Who was it that originally believed that the "punch" could be confused with "count the basket"?

Not in each organizational meeting to know why each do different things, but the NCAA likes to address things directly and puts stuff out. The NCAA had several situations in the NCAA Tournament where an official gave the "punch" and looked like the official was calling a "count the basket.

From my reading of Forum threads over the past few years, I thought that it was the NCAA that was originally worried about such confusion, yet they, unlike the NFHS, decided not to act on it.

Didn't I say

That's what confused me (if my facts are straight).

BillyMac wrote
Or maybe signal confusion has absolutely nothing to do with the recent NFHS signal change?

You tend to worry about things that no one else worries about. I have no idea what you are confused by, just pointing out that the CCA made the change. Who decided first to make such a change is not something I worry about. I know the CCA meets multiple times during the year according to someone on the committee (I happened to work for).

BillyMac wrote
And maybe the NCAA figured that any slight possibility of signal confusion didn't warrant a signal change?

JRutledge wrote
I was not referencing the "hand behind the head" mechanic. For the record both the NCAA and the NF have stopped using different signals for TC and PC fouls. The funny thing is both have decided on different signals. My point is either way people are not confused when we call a PC foul even if it is not a block/charge play.

Do you read stuff before you write them multiple times?

Peace

Raymond

BillyMac wrote
I don't care if they don't talk to each other, but I do care about the rationale.

Who was it that originally believed that the "punch" could be confused with "count the basket"?

From my reading of Forum threads over the past few years, I thought that it was the NCAA that was originally worried about such confusion, yet they, unlike the NFHS, decided not to act on it.

That's what confused me (if my facts are straight).

Or maybe signal confusion has absolutely nothing to do with the recent NFHS signal change?

The official signals were also modified to use the same hand signal for a player control foul and a team control foul. Officials should use Signal 36, which is a hand placed at the back of the head, for both types of fouls. Previously, a team control foul was communicated with a punch of the hand. “It is redundant to have different signals to communicate that a foul will be charged to a member of the team in control of the ball,” Wynns said. “Officials don’t understand the need to differentiate between a player control foul and a team control foul, and many game participants, table personnel and fans don’t know the difference.” The committee reviewed various changes that had been both made and requested at a variety of levels of basketball and determined that all player and team control fouls should utilize signal 36 (the hand behind the head) rather than the previous mechanics that utilized Signal 37 (the extended fist) for a team control foul. The proper sequence for either of these calls will now be signal 4 to indicate a foul, the use of the same arm to give signal 36 to indicate a player or team control foul, followed by signal 6 indicating the direction in which the ball will be put in play and then signal 7 to indicate the throw-in spot.

And maybe the NCAA figured that any slight possibility of signal confusion didn't warrant a signal change?

It was NCAA Men's who thought the punch signal was confusing. So NCAA Men's got rid of the pet single for all theme control files and went to behind the head.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

BillyMac

JRutledge wrote
The NCAA had several situations in the NCAA Tournament where an official gave the "punch" and looked like the official was calling a "count the basket.

JRutledge: Thanks for confirming that for me.

JRutledge wrote
... both the NCAA and the NF have stopped using different signals for TC and PC fouls. The funny thing is both have decided on different signals.

Raymond wrote
It was NCAA Men's who thought the punch signal was confusing. So NCAA Men's got rid of the pet single for all theme control files and went to behind the head.

BillyMac wrote
... if my facts are straight.

Because I'm strictly a high school official, but am still curious about some NCAA "stuff", JRutledge and Raymond have now totally confused me.

NFHS: One signal (hand behind head) for both player control and team control fouls (that I'm certain of).

NCAA Men: One signal (hand behind head) for both player control and team control fouls (according to Raymond, "went to behind the head").

NCAA: One signal (punch) for both player control and team control fouls (according to JRutledge, "both (NFHS and NCAA) have decided on different signals").

Maybe I'm confused because of a possible difference between NCAA Men and NCAA Women?

Help. I'm curious and I can't get up.

Raymond

BillyMac wrote
JRutledge: Thanks for confirming that for me.

Because I'm strictly a high school official, but am still curious about some NCAA "stuff", JRutledge and Raymond have now totally confused me.

NFHS: One signal (hand behind head) for both player control and team control fouls (that I'm certain of).

NCAA Men: One signal (hand behind head) for both player control and team control fouls (according to Raymond, "went to behind the head").

NCAA: One signal (punch) for both player control and team control fouls (according to JRutledge, "both (NFHS and NCAA) have decided on different signals").

Maybe I'm confused because of a possible difference between NCAA Men and NCAA Women?

Help. I'm curious and I can't get up.

I work NCAA-Men's and always defer to Bob and others when it comes to NCAA-Women's. I always make sure to reference Men's when I talk about the NCAA.

BillyMac

JRutledge wrote
For the record both the NCAA and the NF have stopped using different signals for TC and PC fouls. The funny thing is both have decided on different signals.

BillyMac wrote
NFHS: One signal (hand behind head) for both player control and team control fouls (that I'm certain of).

NCAA Men: One signal (hand behind head) for both player control and team control fouls (according to Raymond, "went to behind the head").

BillyMac wrote
NCAA: One signal (punch) for both player control and team control fouls (according to JRutledge, "both (NFHS and NCAA) have decided on different signals").

Raymond wrote
I work NCAA-Men's and always defer to Bob and others when it comes to NCAA-Women's. I always make sure to reference Men's when I talk about the NCAA.

Maybe JRutledge was referring to NCAA Women ("both (NFHS and NCAA) have decided on different signals")?

JRutledge

BillyMac wrote
Maybe JRutledge was referring to NCAA Women ("both (NFHS and NCAA) have decided on different signals")?

I do not work women's basketball and do not care about women's basketball. The NCAA Men's Basketball is the only basketball that makes money and has well-known changes. Women's basketball is so busy trying to be the NBA, they often only do what the NBA does.

BTW, this was in the CCA Manual for 2020-2021.

But thanks for playing.

Peace

BillyMac

JRutledge wrote
You tend to worry about things that no one else worries about. I have no idea what you are confused by ...

One should not confuse worrying with curiosity.

JRutledge wrote
For the record both the NCAA and the NF have stopped using different signals for TC and PC fouls. The funny thing is both have decided on different signals.

What confuses me is that while all appear to agree that the NFHS and the NCAA have both decided on one signal for both team control fouls and player control fouls, JRutledge has stated that the NCAA signal is different than the NFHS signal (which must mean punch for NCAA and hand behind head for NFHS), but Raymond has stated that NCAA-M signal and the NFHS signal are the same (hand behind head).

If JRutledge is referring to the NCAA-W signal as being different than the NFHS signal (with the NCAA-W signal a punch), than I'm no longer confused, or I am no longer confused if JRutledge is mistaken about the NCAA signal being different than the NFHS signal. Or, Raymond might be mistaken (though he seemed confident in both of his posts).

BillyMac

JRutledge wrote
I do not work women's basketball and do not care about women's basketball.

JRutledge wrote
The funny thing is both have decided on different signals.

Then please explain to me how the single team control/player control NCAA signal is different than the NFHS single team control/player control signal, or was Raymond or JRutledge mistaken?

Sure looks the SAME (as in not DIFFERENT) as the NFHS signal.

Raymond

BillyMac wrote
Then please explain to me how the single team control/player control NCAA signal is different than the NFHS single team control/player control signal, or was Raymond or JRutledge mistaken?

Sure looks the SAME (as in not DIFFERENT) as the NFHS signal.

You are posting the signal from NCAA-Men's CCA Manual, so why are you asking if I'm mistaken?

BillyMac

Raymond wrote
You are posting the signal from NCAA-Men's CCA Manual, so why are you asking if I'm mistaken?

Sorry. No offense intended, just giving somebody else the benefit of a doubt as I struggle to decipher, "the funny thing is both have decided on different signals".

Sorry to drag you into this, but thanks for your enlightening (and confirming) posts.

BillyMac

BillyMac wrote
... decipher, "the funny thing is both have decided on different signals".

Got a bee in my bonnet because I used this quote above, from somebody I consider an NCAA rule expert, this morning during a live You Tube presentation (with at least three Forum members in attendance) on new 2021-22 NFHS rules and mechanics to (erroneously) point out that while the NFHS decided to go with the hand behind the head, the NCAA went a "different" way with the punch. Now it's too late to go back and say that I was mistaken (which I am more than willing to do).

But it's still not too late for somebody else to say that they were mistaken.

JRutledge

BillyMac wrote
Then please explain to me how the single team control/player control NCAA signal is different than the NFHS single team control/player control signal, or was Raymond or JRutledge mistaken?

Sure looks the SAME (as in not DIFFERENT) as the NFHS signal.

My reference or comment to different signals was the idea that they would stop using the TC and PC signals for those different types of fouls. I was not trying referencing to what the NF did in comparison to or why. The NCAA did decide to make a change first and did so because of their issues with confusion in their high-profile situations. Also, the NCAA shows a full procedure, the NF at this time only shows one signal (according to their Pre-Season Guide made by NASO). It is a little different and really not the point I was trying to make here. Not worried about why different organizations want to do something they see fit. Different participants and different officials.

Peace

Raymond

BillyMac wrote
Got a bee in my bonnet because I used this quote above, from somebody I consider an NCAA rule expert, this morning during a live You Tube presentation (with at least three Forum members in attendance) on new 2021-22 NFHS rules and mechanics to (erroneously) point out that while the NFHS decided to go with the hand behind the head, the NCAA went a "different" way with the punch. Now it's too late to go back and say that I was mistaken. But it's still not too late for somebody else to say that they were mistaken.

You shouldn't be broadcasting about a rules set without verifying for yourself the the information you are giving out.

BillyMac

Raymond wrote
You shouldn't be broadcasting about a rules set without verifying for yourself the the information you are giving out.

Lesson learned. Even when curious, and adventuresome, I need to stay in my high school lane.

BillyMac

JRutledge wrote
My reference or comment to different signals was the idea that they would stop using the TC and PC signals for those different types of fouls.

Two sentences were posted, not one sentence.

JRutledge wrote
For the record both the NCAA and the NF have stopped using different signals for TC and PC fouls. The funny thing is both have decided on different signals.

BillyMac

JRutledge wrote
... the NCAA shows a full procedure, the NF at this time only shows one signal (according to their Pre-Season Guide made by NASO). It is a little different ...

Because one is a signal and the other is a signal sequence. Stick to the actual signal and both are essentially the same signal (hand behind head). I doubt that the NFHS doesn't want us to stop the clock and point the direction. Probably also wants us to point to the throwin spot and signal the type of contact as part of our preliminary signal and/or reporting signal (team control illegal screen block, player control push/charge, etc.).

JRutledge wrote
The funny thing is both have decided on different signals.

I would still like this quote deciphered, or described simply as a poorly worded written communication mistake.

BillyMac

BillyMac wrote
... this morning during a live You Tube presentation (with at least three Forum members in attendance) on new 2021-22 NFHS rules and mechanics to (erroneously) point out that while the NFHS decided to go with the hand behind the head, the NCAA went a "different" way with the punch. Now it's too late to go back and say that I was mistaken (which I am more than willing to do) ...

Just checked the edited "final" version on You Tube. My original comment did state, "not sure", so while still embarrassing, not too embarrassing.

Also fell on my sword in the new comments section.

But I still need to stay in my lane.

When I make a mistake (in basketball and in life), I acknowledge the mistake, apologize, and correct it.

BillyMac

BillyMac wrote
Because one is a signal and the other is a signal sequence. Stick to the actual signal and both are essentially the same signal (hand behind head). I doubt that the NFHS doesn't want us to stop the clock and point the direction. Probably also wants us to point to the throwin spot and signal the type of contact as part of our preliminary signal and/or reporting signal (team control illegal screen block, player control push/charge, etc.).

Suggest that one saves and enlarges to read.

BillyMac wrote
Sure looks the SAME (as in not DIFFERENT) as the (NCAA) signal.

BillyMac

Disclaimer: For IAABO eyes only. Below is not a NFHS interpretation, it's only an IAABO interpretation which obviously doesn't mean a hill of beans to most members of this Forum.

https://storage.googleapis.com/refquest-pro-dev-processed-videos/vUiWbAnPyBpIUDY2VYp9/ngC3XwqYl0UkjIuMht6S/ngC3XwqYl0UkjIuMht6S.mp4?GoogleAccessId=firebase-adminsdk-r5mhk%40refquest-pro-dev.iam.gserviceaccount.com&Expires=16447017600&Signature=btj%2Fkio%2Fv7VB8mmk%2B6%2Bb%2FpSIfpNKLC16UsSIx2jHdCkh8R4h4bPxi5Pf19QdK6DTfh0FbQ0xQtBa9xmz1vGI1%2FH5XEfvG5S0tHcYmcF4bYOEkL%2FP3lhQi%2BNfrDapX4uPl95fXrU8izJ7AdYO%2BsxuXSR1OXFvXBlJpELRILwtnRymsOWAKjN8Ox5EA4YXpk5qq1Ad%2F%2BhDqKmRBs6xA5crfbDlZl7XMDiLPteOgLZdmrKkoOCSJHLkSPEGsxvX3x5lLV0BI%2BfuTUJowS9yXjrZOK4KCsgRHZDIjhsp2dcvXf7D8hTbPI9SCYZSyfOaMyTW7fM1%2Fa9fDIRXL07Fw%2B0UYg%3D%3D

IAABO Play Commentary Correct Answer: This is a foul for illegal contact.

When the NFHS first adopted the rebounding rule (4-37), it was derived from the guarding rule 4-23. Officials need to understand specific guidelines for a player to obtain a legal rebounding position.

To obtain or maintain a legal rebounding position, a player may not:
a. Displace, charge or push an opponent.
b. Extend shoulders, hips, knees, or extend the arms or elbows fully or partially in a position other than vertical so that the freedom of movement of an opponent is hindered when contact with the arms or elbows occurs.
c. Bend his/her body in an abnormal position to hold or displace an opponent.
d. Violate the principle of verticality.

In this play, White #20 is moving into the lane when he displaces Red #10. This contact impacted Red #10's ability to secure the rebound and was correctly ruled a foul by the Center official.

In this play, the Center's primary responsibility is to stay with the shooter, making an attempt near the sideline in her PCA. After she is confident the shooter is back to the floor without being contacted by the defender, she turns her attention back toward the lane and observes the illegal contact. With the Center having a try from her PCA, The Trail official should be responsible for the flight of the ball and any infractions at the ring. The Lead should stay focused on the rebounders and be responsible for any illegal contact in the lane area. (IAABO Manual p. 158-159)

Here is the breakdown of the IAABO members that commented on the video: This is a foul for illegal contact 86% (including me). This is not a foul and the play should have continued 14%.

« Previous Page Next Page »