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-   -   Fun With A Jump Ball ... (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/105477-fun-jump-ball.html)

BillyMac Mon Aug 16, 2021 08:47am

Fun With A Jump Ball ...
 
IAABO Make The Call Video

https://storage.googleapis.com/refqu...78B08yag%3D%3D

Is this a backcourt violation? The airborne player had frontcourt status when he caught the ball and landed in the backcourt. Should a violation have been ruled?

Two choices: This is a backcourt violation. This is not a backcourt violation.

My comment: This is not a backcourt violation. During a jump ball, any player may legally jump from his frontcourt, secure control of the ball with both feet off the floor, and return to the floor with one, or both, feet in the backcourt. The player may make a normal landing, and it makes no difference whether the first foot down is in the frontcourt, or the backcourt.

bob jenkins Mon Aug 16, 2021 09:10am

Easy no call.

Shouldn't be much discussion on this one.

BillyMac Mon Aug 16, 2021 10:10am

From Your Lips To God's Ears ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1044310)
Shouldn't be much discussion on this one.

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/mh4AA...c4L/s-l300.jpg

JRutledge Mon Aug 16, 2021 10:17am

This is a debate? I guess some people need to look up the rules on what constitutes a backcourt violation. But then again I am sure someone will post an irrelevant definition over and over again to prove some point. ;)

Peace

BillyMac Mon Aug 16, 2021 10:25am

Exceptions ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1044312)
This is a debate? ... what constitutes a backcourt violation.

It isn't yet.

Already stated in my comment, but here it is:

9-9-3: During a jump ball, throw-in or while on defense, a player may legally jump from his/her frontcourt, secure control of the ball with both feet off the floor and return to the floor with one or both feet in the backcourt. The player may make a normal landing and it makes no difference whether the first foot down is in the frontcourt or backcourt.

BillyMac Mon Aug 16, 2021 11:04am

Pick Your Battles ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1044310)
Shouldn't be much discussion on this one.

Noticed bob jenkins decided to sit out and just be a spectator in the earlier Fun With The Division Line thread.

Smart man.

https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.i...=0&w=300&h=300

JRutledge Mon Aug 16, 2021 11:18am

I was very aware.

Peace

BillyMac Mon Aug 16, 2021 12:16pm

Wrong Way Corrigan ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1044310)
Easy no call.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1044312)
This is a debate?

Early IAABO Make The Call Video returns indicate, for the most part, "This is not a backcourt violation".

One that caught my eye had the wrong reason, citing the three point dribbling exception rule.

Any official that has been to a few rodeos has heard this "wrong way" explanation before.

Trainers need to be aware of these "myths" and stop them before they take hold, grow, and spread, nipping them in the bud.

http://www.rickackerman.com/wp-conte...7540474126.jpg

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.Y...=0&w=300&h=300

BillyMac Tue Aug 17, 2021 08:57am

Shoe ...
 
http://www.shoecomics.com/archives/s...aily080921.jpg

BillyMac Tue Aug 17, 2021 10:43am

Some People ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1044312)
I guess some people need to look up the rules on what constitutes a backcourt violation.

Which "some people"? Has anyone who has posted in this thread disagreed with, or questioned, the no-call by the officials in the video?

JRutledge Tue Aug 17, 2021 10:54am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1044318)
Which "some people"? Has anyone who has posted in this thread disagreed with, or questioned, the no-call by the officials in the video?

All my comments are not about you. I did not say a single thing about anyone in this thread. Not a single word.

Peace

BillyMac Tue Aug 17, 2021 11:11am

Some People Call Me The Space Cowboy (Steve Miller Band, 1969) ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1044319)
All my comments are not about you. I did not say a single thing about anyone in this thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1044312)
I guess some people need to look up the rules on what constitutes a backcourt violation.

Never thought it was directed at me. I am very confident that I have the correct interpretation, and probably share that interpretation with JRutledge.

I was just curious about who "some people" are"?

Could "some people" refer to those IAABO members who will inevitably get this interpretation wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1044316)
Early IAABO Make The Call Video returns indicate, for the most part, "This is not a backcourt violation". One that caught my eye had the wrong reason, citing the three point dribbling exception rule.


JRutledge Tue Aug 17, 2021 11:15am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1044320)
Never thought it was directed at me. I am very confident that I have the correct interpretation.

I was just curious about who "some people" are"?

Could "some people" refer to those IAABO members who will inevitably get this interpretation wrong.

Again it was not personal or directed towards anyone. There are people that would think this was an obvious violation and I am saying this is right out of the book as to not being one. Also, many people do not know basic jump ball rules, like when or if the jump ball ends. It was not even about IAABO people, because if I polled this on my site or other places, I know there would be people that would say this was a violation. There always is one and that was kind of my point.

Peace

BillyMac Tue Aug 17, 2021 11:26am

More Than Just A Few Outliers ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1044321)
There are people that would think this was an obvious violation and I am saying this is right out of the book as to not being one.

And, surprisingly to me, JRutledge would be correct (not surprised that JRutledge was correct, but surprised that more than just a few outliers would think this was an obvious violation).

I should have paid attention to my own comment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1044316)
Trainers need to be aware of these "myths" and stop them before they take hold, grow, and spread, nipping them in the bud.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1044320)
Could "some people" refer to those IAABO members who will inevitably get this interpretation wrong.

Early IAABO Make The Call Video comments:

This is a backcourt violation. Unlike a throw in.

This is a backcourt violation. Established front court status

This is a backcourt violation. The player must establish back court status before he touches the ball.

This is a backcourt violation. Front court established, then steps into backcourt. A violation.

This is a backcourt violation. Appears that play was in front court and jumps into the air to get the jump ball tipped into the air.

This is a backcourt violation. No team position on the tip. Caught the ball in the air. Landed in the backcourt (one or both feet, or the center line).

This is a backcourt violation.The player who received the ball had established front court status, but received the ball in the backcourt, before establishing backcourt status. Backcourt violation.

This is a backcourt violation. Hell of a way to start the game.

This is a backcourt violation. By rule-yes.

This is a backcourt violation. Feet in frontcourt when jumped.


That's just from the first hundred, or so, comments.

I fully empathize with some calling this a backcourt violation in the heat of a real game, in real time. A jump ball is, after all, a microburst of mayhem for many, but it's so much easier to get it right in a video, especially when one knows in advance that something "weird" is about to happen.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Tue Aug 17, 2021 11:56am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1044317)



LOL!!

I still officiate in the league!

MTD, Sr.

BillyMac Tue Aug 17, 2021 12:03pm

Nonagenarian ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. (Post 1044323)
I still officiate in the league!

Didn't realize that the officials also had to be over ninety.

BillyMac Sat Aug 21, 2021 09:04am

IAABO Survey Says …
 
Disclaimer: For IAABO eyes only. Below is not a NFHS interpretation, it's only an IAABO International interpretation which obviously doesn't mean a hill of beans to most members of this Forum.

https://storage.googleapis.com/refqu...78B08yag%3D%3D

IAABO Play Commentary Correct Answer: This is not a backcourt violation.

This play depicts one of the three exceptions to the backcourt rule. During a jump ball, throw-in or while on defense, a player may legally jump from his/her frontcourt, secure control of the ball with both feet off the floor and return to the floor with one or both feet in the backcourt. The player may make a normal landing and it makes no difference whether the first foot down is in the frontcourt or backcourt. (9-9-3)

It is impressive that 92% of respondents had a correct response on this play. For the 8% that answered incorrectly, this is an opportunity to expand your rules knowledge and learn from this play to apply the rules accurately if/when this play situation occurs in a game you are officiating.

Here is the breakdown of the IAABO members that commented on the video: This is not a backcourt violation 91% (including me). This is a backcourt violation 9%.

Kansas Ref Thu Sep 02, 2021 09:43pm

Whenever there's a jump ball, just before the ref tosses they always say to the players : "now dont move".

BillyMac Fri Sep 03, 2021 04:37am

Don't Say ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref (Post 1044467)
Whenever there's a jump ball, just before the ref tosses they always say to the players : "now dont move".

"Hold your spots", said by the referee, or tosser, before the jump ball, is only rule based for some of the players. One exception to this rule, and there are others, is that players on the jump ball circle can move off the jump ball circle at any time: before the toss, during the toss, or after the toss.

"You can't stand behind him”, stated by the referee, or the umpire, before a jump ball, to a player who is directly behind an opponent, both whom are ten feet off the jump ball circle, is not rule based. The rule that players can’t stand behind, within three feet, of an opponent, only applies to players on, and within three feet of, the jump ball circle. Players farther back than that can stand wherever they want, as long as they get to that spot first.

Good officials should not be saying these general statements. Don't say them, or be more specific (just don't make it a rules clinic).

Raymond Fri Sep 03, 2021 06:26am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref (Post 1044467)
Whenever there's a jump ball, just before the ref tosses they always say to the players : "now dont move".

The only comment I make is to be jumpers themselves, which is, "be ready, I don't bounce the ball, I go straight up".

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

BillyMac Fri Sep 03, 2021 01:26pm

Don't Ask, Don't Tell ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1044471)
The only comment I make is to be jumpers themselves, which is, "be ready, I don't bounce the ball, I go straight up".

For me (after pointing proper directions): "Everybody ready? Have fun".

"Everybody" covers everybody, but especially the nonsensical "speaking captains" who, by rule, we have to inform. I just assume that they're both starting (or can hear me from the bench), plus I don't really know who they are anyway because, when I'm the referee, I don't ask who they are in my coaches/captains/officials pregame conference.

In 2018-19, IAABO, in their mechanics manual, did away with the captain notification, but got their hand slapped by the NFHS and put it back in (I believe the following year). Obviously, I don't follow the IAABO manual 100%, I'm a real rebel.

My coaches/captains/officials pregame conference: "Coaches, please make sure that your players are legally equipped and that they know how to wear their uniforms properly. Coaches and captains, please make sure that everyone exhibits good sportsmanship. Any questions? Have fun."

That's it. Nothing more. Nothing less. Minimum required by rule.

https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.C...=0&w=300&h=300

Raymond Fri Sep 03, 2021 05:13pm

My whistle is my notification to the captains. I don't point directions. Is that in the manual?

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

BillyMac Fri Sep 03, 2021 06:42pm

Whistle ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1044482)
My whistle is my notification to the captains.

That would certainly cover the purpose and intent of the rule.

BillyMac Sat Sep 04, 2021 08:45am

Directional Signal ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1044482)
I don't point directions. Is that in the manual?

I only have access to the IAABO mechanics manual. Current manual states:

Jump Ball: 1) The tossing official b) Verbally and by directional signal indicates the teams' basket.

Disclaimer: For IAABO eyes only. Above may not be a NFHS mechanic, it may only be an IAABO mechanic which obviously doesn't mean a hill of beans to most members of this Forum.

My newest NFHS mechanics manual is from 2003-04 and doesn't mention article B.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Sat Sep 04, 2021 11:52am

Mills Lane: "Let's get it on!"
 
Before stepping into the Center Circle:

1) I pointed in each direction not so much as to remind the Teams which way they are going but more as a reminder to my partner(s) AND me as to which way the Teams are going.

2) A Team consists of Five Players, one of whom is the Captain. The Captain, from a historial standpoint is the leader of the Team both on and off the Court and is more important than the Coach, therefore I always (with apologies to the late J. Dallas Shirely) checked with the Captains.

After entering the Center Circle and just before tossing the Ball, I quote my favorite Boxing Referee, Mills Lane, to the Jumpers: "Let's get it on!"

NOTE: As an Evaluator I will not ding an Official for pointing in each direction but I would advise him to not do it and I would never (again, with apologies to the late J. Dallas Shirely) even acknowledge that he addressed the Captains before entering the Center Circle.

MTD, Sr.

BillyMac Sat Sep 04, 2021 12:16pm

O Captain! My Captain! (Walt Whitman, 1865) ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. (Post 1044496)
A Team consists of Five Players, one of whom is the Captain ...

Back in ancient times, when Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. was officiating with his good friend James Naismith, teams only had one captain.

Now many teams will award the captaincy to almost all seniors (and occasionally some juniors). I had a game a few years ago with one team having quad-captains, and the other team having quint-captains. I was the umpire. The referee asked who was the "speaking" captain of each team, asked for their numbers (all were wearing warm-ups), and finally followed up with, "Are you starting?" (thank God they both answered yes, hate to think what would have happened next if somebody had answered no).

He didn't have enough time left to tell everyone that it was the black line all the way around.

Player: "Mr. Referee. Can we please have a defensive match-up because three substitutes from the other team entered?"
Referee: "No. You're not the speaking captain. Please have the speaking captain ask me".

Regarding the modern rules of basketball, captains are forgettable anachronistic formalities, as outdated as laced basketballs, peach baskets, and chicken wire cages around the perimeter of the court.

Maybe as outdated as Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.?

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Tue Sep 07, 2021 10:50pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1044497)
Back in ancient times, when Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. was officiating with his good friend James Naismith, teams only had one captain.

Now many teams will award the captaincy to almost all seniors (and occasionally some juniors). I had a game a few years ago with one team having quad-captains, and the other team having quint-captains. I was the umpire. The referee asked who was the "speaking" captain of each team, asked for their numbers (all were wearing warm-ups), and finally followed up with, "Are you starting?" (thank God they both answered yes, hate to think what would have happened next if somebody had answered no).

He didn't have enough time left to tell everyone that it was the black line all the way around.

Player: "Mr. Referee. Can we please have a defensive match-up because three substitutes from the other team entered?"
Referee: "No. You're not the speaking captain. Please have the speaking captain ask me".

Regarding the modern rules of basketball, captains are forgettable anachronistic formalities, as outdated as laced basketballs, peach baskets, and chicken wire cages around the perimeter of the court.

Maybe as outdated as Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.?


If a Team has multiple Captains I will ask which one is the "speaking captain".

1) I will speak with any Player as long as the Player does it in a sportsmanlike manner.

2) Most of the time the "speaking captain" is the best player on the team or is the de facto leader of the team. When I have a problem player or coach I want to deal with the de facto leader of the team because most of the time they are your best ally in taking care of problem players and coaches.

MTD, Sr.

BillyMac Wed Sep 08, 2021 07:52am

Signing Captain ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. (Post 1044609)
If a Team has multiple Captains I will ask which one is the "speaking captain".

Could be a problem here in Connecticut when one is the assigned as the referee at the American School For The Deaf.

Go Tigers.


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