Fun With Arm Bars ...

BillyMac

Raymond wrote
... we don't call enough hand-checking fouls at the HS level.

Camron Rust wrote
... call a few and the defenders just stop doing it. There is a small adjustment period but after that you end up with no more fouls than before.

I think that one may actually end up with a fewer fouls to call.

Coaches and players have to adjust, there really isn't an alternative, other than star players and other starters sitting on benches in foul trouble, lots of player disqualifications, lots of free throws being attempted, and visiting coaches being forced to sit on cold buses in snowy parking lots.

BillyMac

BillyMac wrote
Coaches and players have to adjust, there really isn't an alternative ...

Two minutes into the first period, star guard is called for a "touch" handcheck after placing two hands on the ballhandler for a few seconds. He, and his teammates that saw the foul think, "We're not getting way with those tonight". His opponents that saw the foul think, "We're not getting way with those tonight". Both coaches think, "We're not getting way with those tonight. As long as they call these both ways".

Of course, we occasionally come across a few knucklehead players and a few knucklehead coaches who really aren't very bright and who will fail to adjust and find themselves sitting long stretches, or the rest of the game, on the team bench; or on a bench in the locker room, or on a seat on a cold bus in a snowy parking lot.

BillyMac

10-7-12: The following acts constitute a foul when committed against a ball handler/dribbler. A player becomes a ball handler when he/she receives the ball. This would include a player in a post position.
a. Placing two hands on the player.
b. Placing an extended arm bar on the player.
c. Placing and keeping a hand on the player.
d. Contacting the player more than once with the same hand or alternating hands.

10.7.12 SITUATION A: A1 is dribbling in the frontcourt and B1 (a) places two hands on the dribbler; (b) places an extended arm bar on the dribbler; (c) places and keeps a hand on the dribbler; (d) contacts the dribbler more than once with the same hand or alternating hands. RULING: Illegal in all cases. A personal foul shall be ruled any time this type of contact occurs on a player holding or dribbling the ball. (10-6-12)

2014-15 NFHS Basketball Rules Changes
In an effort to eliminate excessive contact on ball-handlers and dribblers outside of the lane area, the committee added Article 12 to Rule 10-6 on contact. As a result, the following acts will constitute a foul when committed against a ball-handler/dribbler: 1) placing two hands on the player, 2) placing an extended arm bar on the player, 3) placing and keeping a hand on the player and 4) contacting the player more than once with the same hand or alternating hands. Rationale: Rather than continuing to make hand-checking a point of emphasis year after year, simply add a brand new rule that requires a personal foul be called any time this type of contact occurs on a player holding or dribbling the ball outside of the lane area. The NFHS game needs this type of illegal contact on the perimeter ball handlers and dribblers eliminated.

2012-13 Points Of Emphasis
Examples of illegal contact are: Hand checking. Any tactic using hands or arms that allows a player on offense or defense to control the movement of an opposing player.
Examples of hand checking foul.
1. Both hands on an opposing player
2. Jabbing a hand or forearm on an opponent.
3. Continuous contact by a hand or forearm on an opponent

Also, at various times in the past:
Regardless of where it takes place on the court, when a player continuously places a hand on the ball handler/dribbler, it is a foul.
Hand checking is a foul and is not incidental contact.
Defensive players shall not have hand(s) on the offensive player. When a player has a hand on, two hands on or jabs a hand or forearm on an opponent, it is a foul.

JRutledge

BillyMac wrote
My posts were only regarding handchecking fouls, not all fouls.

I was only talking about this video. I was not talking about other fouls. I do not need to talk holistically about fouls, in general, to get my point across here.

Peace

sdoebler

This is a foul. At .03-.04 the defender puts the back of his hand on the stomach of the offensive player as he trys to turn and accelerate. These are the type of plays where maybe you are unsure if it is effecting RSBQ or the play but the offensive player needs the ability to accelerate away from the defender and create space with speed. This is prevented by the hand actions of the defender.

Raymond

On this play, I don't think RSBQ was affected. I don't see the ball handler trying to do anything that the defense is preventing him from doing.

Now if you want to call a foul for a stayed hand, then you would be justified.

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BillyMac

Raymond wrote
On this play, I don't think RSBQ was affected. I don't see the ball handler trying to do anything that the defense is preventing him from doing ...

Agree.

However, the NFHS, through a 2014-15 rule change, and a 2012-13 Point of Emphasis, has clearly indicted that it wants to clean up contact on ballhandlers, with zero tolerance for handchecks (except for a single "hot stove" touch, note that the rule states "more than once").

In this video, the defender actually placed three separate and different extended arm bars on the ball handler, even switching arms.

In a real game, I could (maybe) let the first arm bar go, but the second, and especially the third, can't be ignored, and there wasn't much time for a, "Hands off".

ilyazhito

In my response to the video on RefQuest, I called a foul for a stayed hand. Indeed, stayed hand is the most common type of handcheck I have had, followed by two hands on a ball handler.

Raymond

BillyMac wrote
Agree.

However, the NFHS, through a 2014-15 rule change, and a 2012-13 Point of Emphasis, has clearly indicted that it wants to clean up contact on ballhandlers, with zero tolerance for handchecks (except for a single "hot stove" touch, note that the rule states "more than once").

In this video, the defender actually placed three separate and different extended arm bars on the ball handler, even switching arms.

In a real game, I could (maybe) let the first arm bar go, but the second, and especially the third, can't be ignored, and there wasn't much time for a, "Hands off".

There's a reason a had a 2nd paragraph in my response. You chose to edit it out for the purposes of your response.

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JRutledge

If this is what you think the rule is to call, then no one and I mean no one calls this that way at all. Usually, something has to be influenced to even get a call and if all you did was touch, then not many officials are following the rule. And I have heard many start to state to let something happen before you call this. Was the case at several camps I attended just this summer. And the NCAA has the very same rules but still wants you to know when to call this and not when to call this.

Peace

BillyMac

Raymond wrote
There's a reason a had a 2nd paragraph in my response. You chose to edit it out for the purposes of your response.

Raymond wrote
Now if you want to call a foul for a stayed hand, then you would be justified.

Wasn't sure what a "stayed hand", or a "staid hand", was.

If it was an arm bar, we agree.

ilyazhito wrote
... stayed hand ...

Never use this phrase here in my little corner of Connecticut.

Block out. Box out. Regional differences.

Raymond

BillyMac wrote
Wasn't sure what a "stayed hand", or a "staid hand", was.

If it was an arm bar, we agree.

Never use this phrase here in my little corner of Connecticut.

Block out. Box out. Regional differences.

Just a description of an action

remained in the same place.

remained in a specified state or position.

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BillyMac

JRutledge wrote
... then no one and I mean no one calls this ... not many officials are following the rule.

No one, or not many?

I believe that JRutledge works, or has worked, in at least two different states, but has JRutledge observed officials here in my little corner of Connecticut?

Back in 2012-13 and 2014-15 when the NFHS made this a priority, my local board made this a priority.

I actually remember sitting there and saying to myself, "This will be a flash in the pan. No way this will survive the test of time".

I was wrong. Probably because coaches like it that way. Consistency is the key.

If coaches had pushed back over the years, the NFHS's attempt to eliminate almost all handchecks would have been long forgotten here in my local area, and we would probably be back to advantage/disadvantage.

Once again, as usual, when in Rome ...

BillyMac

Raymond wrote
Just a description of an action...

Stayed hand. With posts by Raymond and ilyazhito, I get it now.

JRutledge

BillyMac wrote
No one, or not many?

I believe that JRutledge works, or has worked, in at least two different states, but has JRutledge observed officials here in my little corner of Connecticut?

Back in 2012-13 and 2014-15 when the NFHS made this a priority, my local board made this a priority.

I actually remember sitting there and saying to myself, "This will be a flash in the pan. No way this will survive the test of time".

I was wrong. Probably because coaches like it that way. Consistency is the key.

If coaches had pushed back over the years, the NFHS's attempt to eliminate almost all handchecks would have been long forgotten here in my local area, and we would probably be back to advantage/disadvantage.

You are kind of missing the point. Yes, it is technically a foul if there is constant touching. Yes, the rules prohibit there to be constantly touching a player with a forearm. But there are not many officials that are calling it that explicit and that is in the multiple places I officiate. Again the NCAA is much more strict on that and we still message the rule when we can at that level. There is a video out every week during the season highlighting 10-1-4 fouls (where the NF rule came from) and even in practice, it is hard to find someone call this specific play mentioned as a foul without some movement or stopping of the ball handler here. And when you call something like this, it does not necessarily go over well either. And I am sorry I do not use coaches as the gauge for anything, because they want any touching to be a foul when clearly a defender has not placed or extended their arms on a ball handler. Now it is much more accepted to make this foul call, but the play you showed it is hard to see how much if any contact the defender is making for much of the video. It looks like a handchecking foul, but is it really a handchecking foul?

This is why during plays like this I say, "Hands, hands, hands, hands" even before they touch the player so they are aware of the possibility of what I am seeing. Also, there is an interpretation where I live about the "hot stove" touch in which you are allowed one touch of the ball handler and then have to remove that arm immediately and it not be a foul. It does look like he touches the dribbler near the endline and the rest is hard to see. That is why for me if the angle is at issue, I need to see some RSBQ be influenced. If there is no "open look" by me which we rarely have in this video, then I feel more confident to make this call. Just like the shoulder video, we cannot see if there is contact even if the ball handler looks like he created contact. Call things you see, not what it "looks like."

Peace

BillyMac

JRutledge wrote
... This is why during plays like this I say, "Hands, hands, hands, hands" even before they touch the player so they are aware of the possibility of what I am seeing.

Agree. I won't do it more than once for each team.

BillyMac wrote
In a real game, I could (maybe) let the first arm bar go, but the second, and especially the third, can't be ignored, and there wasn't much time for a, "Hands off".

JRutledge wrote
... there is an interpretation where I live about the "hot stove" touch in which you are allowed one touch of the ball handler and then have to remove that arm immediately and it not be a foul ...

The single legal "hot stove touch" is not just a local interpretation where JRutledge lives, it's written into the actual NFHS rule for everybody to follow, be it in Connecticut, Illinois, Indiana, Virginia, Alaska, Missouri, Nevada, California, Oregon, Wisconsin, Ohio, Maryland, etc.

BillyMac wrote
10-7-12: The following acts constitute a foul when committed against a ball handler/dribbler.
a. Placing two hands on the player.
b. Placing an extended arm bar on the player.
c. Placing and keeping a hand on the player.
d. Contacting the player more than once with the same hand or alternating hands.

BillyMac wrote
... NFHS ... zero tolerance for handchecks (except for a single "hot stove" touch, note that the rule states "more than once") ...

Once again, and as usual, when in Rome ...

JRutledge

BillyMac wrote
Agree. I won't do it more than once for each team.

What do you mean once for each team? What I said applies to the player guarding the ball in that moment. Not once a game and then after that any touch is a foul.

BillyMac wrote
The single legal "hot stove touch" is not just a local interpretation where JRutledge lives, it's written into the actual NFHS rule for everybody to follow, be it in Connecticut, Illinois, Indiana, Virginia, Alaska, Missouri, Nevada, California, Oregon, Wisconsin, Ohio, Maryland, etc.

Once again, and as usual, when in Rome ...

Where is this interpretation? We were told this years ago and emphasized by our people in Illinois. I have never heard anyone in Indiana explicitly state this but no one calls it as you claim to state it should be called. Should it be? That is a different situation.

Peace

BillyMac

JRutledge wrote
What do you mean once for each team?

If I decide to give a warning (or two), never a given for me in any particular game, I'm not giving warnings for "touch" handchecking all night long.

JRutledge wrote
Where is this interpretation?

Technically, it isn't an interpretation.

It doesn't have to be because it's explicitly and clearly written right there in the rule language, no further interpretation is necessary.

10-7-12: The following acts constitute a foul when committed against a ball handler/dribbler.
a. Placing two hands on the player.
b. Placing an extended arm bar on the player.
c. Placing and keeping a hand on the player.
d. Contacting the player more than once with the same hand or alternating hands.

If it isn't illegal, it's legal.

10-7-12-D allows for a legal single "hot stove" touch.

One "hot stove" touch is legal (if it isn't illegal, it's legal).

A "more than once" hot stove touch is illegal handchecking.

JRutledge

Not exactly the example I am discussing, but not trying to go down that rabbit hole right now.

Peace

BillyMac

JRutledge wrote
Not exactly the example I am discussing, but not trying to go down that rabbit hole right now.

Pretty much word for word.

JRutledge wrote
... the "hot stove" touch in which you are allowed one touch of the ball handler and then have to remove that arm immediately and it not be a foul.

And I agree 100% with JRutledge's interpretation.

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