Errant Pass
 

A1 is ready to make a pass to A2. As A1 goes to make the pass and A2 makes a back door cut. The pass from A1 is weak and bounces several times since this occurred out front and no one is around. A1 recovers the errant pass. I say legal play.

Case play best I can do is 4.15.4.D and 4.44.3 C (b)

Any more help needed?

Had A1 already dribbled prior to this action? Can't discuss this play without that information. And that information allows you to answer your own question.

A1 had not dribbled it makes this a legal play.

If A1 had dribbled, it makes the play illegal.

Still using same case play references?

Let's Go To The Videotape ...
 

4.15.4 SITUATION D: While dribbling: (a) A1 bats the ball over the head of an opponent, runs around the opponent, bats the ball to the floor and continues to dribble; (b) the ball bounces away but A1 is able to get to it and continues to dribble; (c) the ball hits A1’s foot and bounces away but A1 is able to overtake and pick it up; or (d) A1 fumbles the ball in ending the dribble so that A1 must run to recover it. RULING: Violation in (a), because the ball was touched twice by A1’s hand(s) during a dribble, before it touched the floor. In (b), even though the dribble was interrupted it has not ended and A1 may continue the dribble. In (c), the dribble ended when A1 caught the ball; and it ended in (d) when it was fumbled. Even though the dribble has ended in (c) and (d), A1 may recover the ball but may not dribble again. (9-5)

4.44.3 SITUATION C: (a) A1 tosses the ball from one hand to the other while keeping his/her pivot foot in contact with the floor; or (b) A1 throws the ball over the head of B1 and then takes several steps before catching it. RULING: Legal in (a), but a traveling violation in (b). In (b), since the ball did not touch the floor, the tossing and subsequent catch is illegal. (9-4)

Recovers ...
 

Legal, but if "recovers" means A1 held the ball, he can't legally dribble again.

If "recovers" means that A1 simply "continued" dribbling the "self" bounce pass, that's also legal.

If it is clearly a pass (clean) then it is only the start of a dribble. If there is a fumble, then the player can always get their fumble.

So that is why it matters if they have dribbled before, because a player can pick up what is essentially a dribble. And they can always pick up a fumble. Some judgment there, but if a player is fast enough to get a pass in the first place, that is pretty darn good.

Peace

Caveat: the pass can become the start of the dribble so long as it is the legal start of a dribble--the "passer" didn't lift the pivot foot before releasing the ball.

Aside: a couple of years ago, the NBA added a specific prohibition on a self-pass, which would seem to mean that in the NBA this would not be permitted. Seemed an odd add to me.

"Passer" ...
 

Great point. Lifting the pivot foot before releasing the ball is legal for a pass or a try (or to do nothing like standing like a flamingo), but not legal to start a dribble, which would result in a traveling violation.

Like the way so cal lurker put the word "passer" in quotes.

https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.j...=0&w=300&h=300

Fumble ...
 

Thanks JRutledge. Good reminder.

4-21: A fumble is the accidental loss of player control when the ball unintentionally drops or slips from a player’s grasp.

Fumble, dribble, fumble is legal.

Dribble, fumble, dribble is illegal.

So if A1 had dribbled and then stopped with ball in 2 hands and then made the errant pass and the ball stuck the floor when no one was home and A1 is the first to touch this is a violation.

Violation ...
 

Illegal (double) dribble.

9-5: A player must not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of: A try for field goal; A touch by an opponent; A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by, another player.

Self Pass ...
 

I can't disagree with so cal lurker because I know more about Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle than I know about NBA rules.

But I would still like to see how the NBA defines a self-pass?

Steph Curry receives an inbound pass while all alone while deep in his backcourt. He catches the inbound pass with two hands and then turns around, pivoting without moving, or lifting, his pivot foot, and then immediately, with those same two hands, tosses the ball into the air, with the ball striking the court several feet in front of him, and he allows the ball to bounce a few times on the court. He then sees that he's wide open, catches up to the ball, catches it with two hands, lifts both feet, obviously including his pivot foot, and attempts a seventy-five foot jump shot, that hits nothing but net.

NBA expects its officials to use common sense. They know whether or not a player is attempting to pass to a teammate as opposed to simply throwing the ball in front of themselves to start a dribble. Officials who come up with a bunch a hypothetical what-ifs don't even make it into the room.

Intent And Purpose Clause ...
 

As do our high school, and college assigners. Even if there is an "intent and purpose" clause in the NBA rulebook, like there is in the high school rulebook (not sure about college) there must be a definition of self-pass in the NBA rulebook. How's it defined? What's the violation? Travel? Illegal dribble? Self-pass? Something else?

Hypothetical what-ifs and extreme examples gauge the clarity and comprehensiveness of the written rules. We see this all the time here on the Forum, especially in regard to testing the limits of high school rules (where we can't even get a definition of "opponent" in regard to distracting a free thrower).

As usual, you miss the point. You commented about not knowing NBA rules. My point is there is a "common sense, know it when you see it, we're not going to debate every miniscule possible detail" aspect to NBA rules enforcement that you could never align with.

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No Such Thing As A Self Pass ???
 

We often do this for high school rules, and occasionally for college rules, why not rarely for NBA rules? Because few if any Forum members officiate professional level games? We do have a few members with some knowledge of NBA rules (maybe so cal lurker, plus a Forum member who's two sons officiate at the professional level).

The concept of (especially high school) "self passes" pops up occasionally here on the Forum. Often answered by comments like, "No such thing by NFHS definition" (citing 4-31: A pass is movement of the ball caused by a player who throws, bats or rolls the ball to another player), often ending the discussion so we often never get to study the legality of something that doesn't even truly exist according to the NFHS.

Apparently the NBA does broach the concept of self passes (according to so cal lurker). That why I wanted to extrapolate to NBA rules involving self passes to see what's going on two gigantic levels above my pay grade. How does the NBA "handle" self-passes? What's the violation? Travel? Illegal dribble? Self-pass? Something else? Why do they broach the term while the NFHS denies its existence?

Also, I like the term self pass, it's easily understandable, even if it doesn't exist according NFHS rules. Certainly no harm in using self pass as a generic term to describe a certain act, or situation? Right?

My high school commissioner is an NBA Finals referee. Our lead on-court trainer is an NBA referee. The two referees whom you referenced above as the children of a forum member came up through my high school board. I referee every summer using NBA rules in a Pro-Am for the aforementioned trainer of my high school board, often side-by-side with G-League and NBA referees.

I am familiar enough with how NBA referees operate.

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What'cha Call A Forum NBA Expert ...
 

Great, a perfect source for NBA citations on the Forum

That being said, how does the NBA define a self-pass? Are there any NBA interpretations regarding such? What's the violation? Travel? Illegal dribble? Self-pass? Something else? Also, a general question, does the NBA have an "intent and purpose" clause in its rulebook, and is it similar to the NFHS clause?

Thank you in advance.

When I'm refereeing the Pro-Am, I'll know when A1 throws a pass intended for a teammate and call a violation if A1 retrieves the pass. I don't need to know the verbiage in the rule book.

https://videorulebook.nba.com/

https://official.nba.com/rulebook/

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For the situation in the OP, there is an NFHS play ruling in which B1 grabs a rebound, pivots, and attempts an outlet pass to a teammate who runs away without knowing that the pass was thrown his way. B1 runs over and collects the ball after it has bounced on the court. The ruling is that this is a legal play and that the action constitutes a dribble by B1.

NEVADAREF ... now that is what I am after .. which year is the case play? THANKS

Let's Go To The Videotape ...
 

The Rarely Used Flamingo Interpretation ...
 

Rules With No His/Her ...
 

Thanks Raymond.

NBA Section XIII—Traveling
A player may not be the first to touch his own pass unless the ball touches his backboard, basket ring or another player.

So this below would be illegal by NBA rules. Interesting.

Seems odd to me to see a rulebbok without the slashed pronoun his/her.

I Know It When I See It ...
 

Clear Conception ...
 

One thing to remember about NBA officials that does not apply to high school nor college officials.

All NBA officials come through an NBA developmental program where they are taught the same philosophies and principles.

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One Rule, One Interpretation, One Mechanic ...
 

Similar to what IAABO International strives to accomplish with their various educational materials, study guides, videos, newsletters, seminars, etc.

Unfortunately, these consistent IAABO philosophies and principles often get diluted as they trickle down through the state and local levels.

A local IAABO board is only as good as it's most recent interpreter (trainer).

The only live professional basketball I'm exposed to is the WNBA Connecticut Sun.

When I watch these games I'm always impressed by the officials, their confidence, their skill, and their consistency, as if they're all made from the same mold.

https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.F...=0&w=300&h=300

Yep, G-League, WNBA, and NBA all fall under the same developmental umbrella. You probably have seen our esteemed forum member's sons officiate a Sun's game at some point.

Will Call Box Office Window ...
 

He keeps me informed when his kids are in Connecticut, or are on television.

Our families have a lot in common.

Esteemed? Maybe? Sure, if you say so.

https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.g...=0&w=298&h=164