Golf Clap and Standing Bench Personnel
 

There's a local team with a decent win-loss record for which I officiate games. For several years now, when it gets down to the last 10 seconds or so, and when when their win is assured (usually with a 10+ point lead), everyone on the team's bench stands and slowly claps (much like a golf clap) until the final horn sounds. They don't do this when they're about to lose, nor when the game is very close (around ~8 points or so), because the outcome isn't certain.

Relevant Rule and Case Book Play:

10-5: The head coach is responsible for his/her own conduct and behavior, as well as substitutes, disqualified team members and all other bench personnel. Bench personnel, including the head coach, shall not:

ART 4... Stand at the team bench while the clock is running or is stopped, and shall remain seated.

10.5.4 SITUATION B: Team A coaches and substitutes are all standing during a free throw by A1. The infraction is detected by the officials. How many technical fouls are assessed? In a situation where similar multiple infractions occur at the same time, it is not the intent of the rules to penalize each individual infraction as a separate technical foul. One technical foul is charged to Team A and it is also charged indirectly to the head coach in this situation, resulting in the loss of coaching-box privileges.

It seems a bit unsporting that they would do this only when they're about to win, but it doesn't seem productive to stop the game to record either a warning (and, in the case of a running clock due to the mercy rule, would be counterproductive) or assess a technical foul under 10-5-4 (which would just postpone the inevitable win just the same).

Is this team's collective behavior just something to overlook or should it be addressed as unsporting (starting next season, as we're now finished with the regular season and the regional tournament)? If they did this for every game it might be different, but it's only when a win is imminent. I can imagine the reaction of the head coach if one of us stops the game to address this. It'll go over like a lead balloon. Nevertheless, these questions remain:

Judge it legal? Address it as as an association? Something else?

I'm counting down to 10 and hitting the locker room.

Yes, it is technically an infraction but not one I or anyone else is going to care about.

What are we addressing? Celebration?

Peace

Non-spontaneous, premature celebration outside the limits of 10-5-4, I suppose, but yes, celebrating.

If you are bothered by it as an official, I guess you should address it to your assigner/supervisor or that school's state governing board.

If a change is going to come to that particular behavior, the direction needs to come from a higher authority, not an individual basketball official.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Unless you want to be branded some combination of “high maintenance” and “overly officious” by your peers, assigner, and coaches, I highly recommend letting this go.

Don’t be a plumber.

Aside from posting the question here, it's been five seasons and I still haven't taken any action yet. So, here's to season six! :)

I Just Want To Celebrate (Rare Earth, 1971) ...
 

10-5-4-D: Bench personnel, including the head coach, must not: Stand at the team bench while the clock is running or is stopped, and must remain seated, except: To spontaneously react to an outstanding play by a team member or to acknowledge a replaced player(s), but must immediately return to his/her seat.

Premature? Not really. Non-spontaneous? Definitely. Celebration? Definitely. Immediately? Ten seconds? Pushing the limits. Allowed? Was there an outstanding play by a team member? Unsporting? Possibly.

Too many gray area questions regarding the rule. Agree 100% with Raymond. Don't go tilting at windmills alone, even for a noble cause. Bring backup, and not just Sancho Panza.

https://tse1.explicit.bing.net/th?id...=0&w=300&h=300

Is anyone having an issue with this? Players and teams do all kinds of things that are not spontaneous and we do not penalize them or even think about doing such. It is a golf clap, not yelling at the opponent. IF that is the case then any bench mob action is also a T. I have been doing this over 20 years and not seen many reasons to regulate any action without some direction and certainly not any direction on something like this.

Peace

Officiating is like being a judge. If you take everything literally without some standard of conduct being stated, then you should not be the only one make the law on the bench. There needs to be some kind of situation from the higher-ups to address this the way you wish or you are paying attention to something that no one cares about. I mean are coaches from other teams complaining? If they are, that should go to either a state organization, local association or an assignor that can address this through their staff. But right now, if that is all you got, I would not be doing anything but letting the clock run out.

Peace

Exception ...
 

I agree with the rest of JRutledge's recent post, but will remind the Forum that his statement above is not completely true. There are rule exceptions to allow some "mob action" by the bench. Bench personnel are always allowed to spontaneously react to an outstanding play by a teammate (or to acknowledge replaced players), but must immediately return to their seats.

To paraphrase JRutledge, many of us will also allow a few other things on a case by case basis using our experience, game management skills, judgement, local "culture", and common sense. I occasionally come across a bench "players", or assistant coaches, that "uncomfortably" delay returning to their seats after enthusiastically cheering (maybe for a tomahawk dunk), and will simply remind them to sit down as I pass the bench (not a written warning), and I'm usually immediately backed up by the head coach, or more often than not, an assistant.

There are schools or programs that have very choreographed responses to many good plays by their team. I cannot think of the school that did it throughout the year and in the NCAA Tournament, but they had some kind of "spontaneous" action ever good play and did it all game. They would do everything from hitting a baseball out of the park to rowing and clearly, none of them were really spontaneous. Never heard anyone suggest we give a T for this. So not sure what I said was not true? It is about perspective. This situation in the OP is no different. I do not think we should micro-manage these situations any more than what we have. And considering all the yelling I hear in my games by certain teams when they are about to win, I am not sure I would ever consider this action if I never considered the others as unsporting to where it results in me giving a T.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/eGOZ5ozIrEE" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Peace

Then Any Bench Mob Action Is Also A Technical Foul ???
 

You said, "then any bench mob action is also a T".

Any? No. Not true.

Any bench "mob action" is not a technical foul. Sure, some bench "mob action" may be a technical foul (taunting), but some bench "mob action" is always legal, by rule.

Here's one "mob action" that is never a technical foul: bench personnel spontaneously reacting to an outstanding play by a teammate but must then immediately return to their seats. Assuming nothing else is complicating the situation, this bench "mob action" is never a technical foul in a high school game. Not even a judgment call. It's never a technical foul (assuming nothing else is complicating the situation).

Agree.

Yes any if we take the logic if the OPer's assertion about what he described. Obviously I am not advocating that nor would I use the line he did as a way to find a T in this specific situation.

You are so busy arguing with yourself you missed the point. There are many celebrations that are not spontaneous in reality.

Peace

Lots Of Gray Areas ...
 

I think that I agree. Mike Goodwin's original post was a lot more complicated than, as allowed by rule, bench personnel spontaneously reacting to an outstanding play by a teammate and immediately returning to their seats.

Wasn't spontaneous (appears orchestrated over many years). Doesn't appear to be a reaction to a single outstanding play by a teammate (more of a reaction to an assured victory). Bench personnel did not immediately return to their seats. They were up for about ten seconds.

Lots of "gray" areas.

To agree with your earlier point, that's where using our experience, game management skills, judgement, local "culture", common sense, and looking at each situation case by case allows us to react to the situation, maybe ignoring and letting the clock run out, or maybe "bumping up" the situation as a question to be answered by a higher authority. I don't believe that a technical foul in that game based on a single official's belief that it's illegal or unsporting is the way to go here. But I don't question his wanting some outside input into a situation that he believes is questionable in terms of the "standing" rule as written, or as an unsporting act. If the situation keeps bothering him over many years, his best bet is to discuss it with his assigner, an assigner who can then bump it upstairs if he wishes, or if not, tell the official to take a hike.

We have all in our career been told the ways of the road. Or the ins and outs of this business. His asking is not an issue at all. The issue is if he goes out on his own doing something and has no support for that action or no one other than him bringing it to his attention to do something. It can bother him just like things bothered us coming up, but the last thing I want him or any official to do is to penalize something that no one is going to support him on because he read a line in the rulebook. Those lines mean something and have precedent and calling a T, near the end of the game might not be a good career move. It is perfectly fine to ask, but understand why we are saying what we are saying about why that might not work out that well if you pull that trigger. It is up to anyone after that to realize what is the best thing to do.

Peace

The Mark Padgett Memorial Croquet Tournament ...
 

By written rule to back him up, even without playing the "unsporting card", he would be "theoretically" correct to charge a technical foul: wasn't spontaneous, doesn't appear to be a reaction to a single outstanding play by a teammate, and bench personnel did not immediately sit back down.

Three strikes. You're out. Technical foul. "Theoretically".

But we don't officiate "theoretical" basketball games.

In a real game, if he unilaterally pulls the trigger in a ten point game, it would, as JRutledge stated, not be a good career move, even with written rule backing.

Even worse, if he unilaterally pulls the trigger in a two point game, he may never officiate basketball again and could end up officiating The Mark Padgett Memorial Croquet Tournament (game fees plus all the cucumber sandwiches and watercress sandwiches one can eat).

Written Warning ...
 

Problem solved. Written warning.

May generate a few derogatory remarks by coaches and officiating colleagues, but it won't have a major impact on the long term future of one's basketball officiating career.

On the other hand, it may still be overkill. Never mind.

I Miss Mark Padgett ...
 

Plus one gets to meet many hot single Grandmas.

Small Sample, especially for BillyMac
 

So here's an example of what this looks like:

Reminder: I haven't acted on this yet and have no plans on doing so independently.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=2h47...ature=youtu.be (video elapsed time: 2h, 47m, 15s)

Questions/concerns/advice from previous posts:

1) count down from 10 and hit the locker room. That's what I have done and currently do;
2) get branded “high maintenance” and “overly officious." Since I haven't acted on this to date, it'd have to be for other reason(s) that I might get branded this way;
3) are coaches from other teams complaining? I do not know; I've never asked them. They see this team anywhere from maybe 1-4 times or so each year; I see them at least 6, so it's a cumulative exposure over years for me seeing this;
4) call this in a two-point game? Nah, they only do this when their win is assured (lead at least >10 pts.);
5) local "culture"? No other local teams do this. And we aren't generally known for being innovators unless it's arctic-weather related; certainly not anything basketball-related. I'm surprised this end-of-game behavior doesn't occur elsewhere in the Lower 48 (if it does look familiar, kindly let me know). If they did this one when they were about to lose, I'd be able to drop it without hesitation straightaway;
6) I'm in the twilight of my career (too old for college ball), so moving up isn't going to happen and I also have a good relationship with my assignor, so neither is a concern of mine.

Two analogies that might be useful: this might have the look and feel of getting a speeding ticket for 36-in-a-35mph zone (and no, I have never given or received one of those). So, yes, overkill is a good word to describe it (thanks, BillyMac).

The other analogy is something akin to passengers unbuckling and standing up on an airplane while the aircraft is still moving along the taxiway and nowhere close to the gate. It does no good for the captain to stop the aircraft to address the standees, but it doesn't mean it isn't behavior that might need to be addressed *somehow*.

Since all y'all are unaffiliated with basketball where my board operates, this is a pretty good place to ask. For various reasons, I won't get the same nuggets of wisdom, anecdotes, and other stories if I only ask my local peers about this.

You will, however, get all the information that matters to you in this case.

And, the video is nothing.

If that is a technical foul, I am going to have one every single game when the game is decided. Players and benches tend to celebrate near the end. And they do not often golf clap, they make noise and let it be known they got this game. I would not even have noticed this if you did not mention this.

Peace

Rules Intelligently Applied ...
 

First of all, the clapping by bench personnel is perfectly legal. Bench personnel can legally clap from the jump ball until the final buzzer as long as it's not taunting (and if it doesn't distract free throw shooters, a controversial topic here on the Forum).

Regarding bench personnel standing. Technically it is illegal by the written rule because it wasn't spontaneous and doesn't appear to be a reaction to an outstanding play by a teammate (bench personnel not immediately sitting down doesn't apply since the game ended).

But we don't just officiate by the written rule. We have to know the intent and purpose of a rule so that it may be intelligently applied, in this case to create an atmosphere of sporting behavior.

Being around basketball for over fifty years as a player, coach, and official, I know unsporting behavior when I see it and this isn't unsporting behavior.

It doesn't appear to be taunting. With seven seconds left in the game, it doesn't even deserve a written warning, or a warning of any type.

https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.s...=0&w=352&h=166

That being said, I do appreciate Mike Goodwin being a true guardian of the game, as all good officials should be. This behavior got his antennae tingling, and he decided to give it some careful thought.

Maybe things are different in the "Land of the Midnight Sun", but here in the "Land of Steady Habits" this wouldn't even register a blip on our radar screens.

Here in Connecticut we use radar to land airplanes and to follow storms, not as Alaskans do to warn us about incoming Russian bombers and missiles.

Oh how I miss the days when Red would light up a stogie to signify that a Celtics' win was in the bag!

MTD, Sr.

Tobacco Road ...
 

https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.n...=0&w=300&h=300

10-5-3: Bench personnel, including the head coach, must not: Use alcohol, or any form of tobacco product (e-cigarette or similar items) beginning with arrival at the competition site until departure following the completion of the contest.

Young'uns can check out Red Auerbach on the Google.

Thanks Billy. I am showing my age, LOL!

MTD, Sr.

This appears to be a Trumpet of the Swan reference.

The First Rule Of Officiating ...
 

I'm not familiar with that reference (I even checked it out on the Google and still didn't understand the reference).

One of my favorite Forum posters was Mark Padgett. The reference to officiating croquet came from him joking that after serious cardiac surgery he was forced to live in an assisted living facility and he turned in his basketball whistle and began to officiate croquet.