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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Sat Mar 06, 2021, 01:08pm
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I have no problems calling player technicals. I had 4 in 42 games this winter.

But the And One crap would have to be really in my face or repeated or super loud for me to care in any way, shape, or form.


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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Sun Mar 07, 2021, 12:20am
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Originally Posted by Raymond View Post

Agree that labeling a T as a " nuclear option" is problematic.

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And then people wonder why sportsmanship is getting worse. Too many high school officials preach nonsense about avoiding technical fouls like your life depends on it.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Sun Mar 07, 2021, 11:00am
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Technical Fouls ...

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Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
Too many high school officials preach nonsense about avoiding technical fouls like your life depends on it.
Forty years ago, when I first started out, I gave out a lot of technical fouls. Part of the reason was because I could (hypnotized by this new power that I held). Another reason was that back then my high school assigner also assigned a few mens recreation leagues, games that were mostly assigned to inexperienced officials and we all know about the crap that occurs in those games (especially with an inexperienced official making some rookie bad calls).

As I progressed to subvarsity high school games, I noticed that my subvarsity partners and the varsity officials that I observed seemed to less frequently charge technical fouls.

One reason, and not a good one, was that (here in Connecticut) coaches "vote" officials into the state tournament. I never subscribed to this idea. I guess that these lenient officials didn't realize that while one voting coach may appreciate the "free pass", the opposing voting coach may not, believing that officials should "take care of business".

Another reason was that many veteran varsity officials prided themselves on their game management skills, using their superior communication and "people" skills to manage coaches "on the cusp".

For me, now in my fortieth year, I do pride myself on my game management, communication, and "people" skills, but also know the value of using technical fouls as one of the many tools that I have at my disposal to manage the game.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Mar 07, 2021 at 02:35pm.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Sun Mar 07, 2021, 11:19am
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Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
And then people wonder why sportsmanship is getting worse. Too many high school officials preach nonsense about avoiding technical fouls like your life depends on it.
You are right.

I had a game yesterday that was a conference tournament (we will have no IHSA Post Season this year). So during the first game, I have a player T after the player was warned. Well when the team lost, we had them again (same crew) right after the first game.

Well during this next game the coach for that team got a T from me, carrying over something from the first game (big no-no for me). Then I had to T up one of his players for throwing the ball at the head of the opponent, after that player that got hit was fouled. My partner called the foul, but I saw the kid throwing the ball at the opponent. It was clear as day.

So immediately after the game because we are in the COVID issue and would not allow us to use the locker room continuously and store our things in that locker room, our bags were right off the court. When the game was over after an overtime session, the coach approaches me and threatens that he was going to call the assignor and called me a disgrace. Well, I was literally on the basketball court and not even near the locker room, I ejected him with a quickness and told the table he had been ejected from the game. Then the coach standing next to me tried to tell the table, "The game is over, you cannot do anything the game is over."

So I went to my car and filed what is called a "Special Report" which is used for all ejections in all states (except for soccer for some reason). I have wifi so I filled out the report and happen to have my computer in the car because I was leaving to go out of town. So without hesitation, I filled out the report. While driving to my destination (3 hours away) the assignor asked me not to file the report, even know I was following the rules. I was pissed beyond belief, but it was too damn late. I had already submitted the report and cannot take it back. And I am a very experienced official that had to deal with this, what about the guy that just started or has 5 years in?

The schools helped create this situation. Normally I would have not been anywhere near the court and on our way to the locker room. Secondly, they think because they can do whatever they wish without consequences. But a T is the same as any other foul, but it is not. IJS.

Peace
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Sun Mar 07, 2021, 11:40am
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Charade ...

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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
... immediately after the game because we are in the COVID issue and would not allow us to use the locker room continuously and store our things in that locker room, our bags were right off the court ... Normally I would have not been anywhere near the court and on our way to the locker room.
One of our COVID protocols here in Connecticut (locker rooms aren't available to officials) is that we've been advised to immediately leave the visual confines of the court after the game as we would in any other year, but to then come back onto the court to change our shoes and get our coats.

It seemed rather silly when I first heard it, but now I see the need for this Connecticut charade after what happened to JRutledge.

For this same situation, no technical foul here in Connecticut (jurisdiction ended after the charade of leaving the court) but I would still contact my assigner (wants to know when anything "odd" happens), who would most likely contact the school's athletic director and/or principal.
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“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Mar 07, 2021 at 02:38pm.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Sun Mar 07, 2021, 11:45am
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Takin' Care of Business (Bachman Turner Overdrive, 1973) ...

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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
When the game was over after an overtime session, the coach approaches me and threatens that he was going to call the assignor and called me a disgrace ... I ejected him with a quickness and told the table he had been ejected from the game ... the assignor asked me not to file the report, even know I was following the rules.
Nice job taking care of business. Inexcusable that your assigner wouldn't back you.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Sun Mar 07, 2021, 11:46am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
You are right.



I had a game yesterday that was a conference tournament (we will have no IHSA Post Season this year). So during the first game, I have a player T after the player was warned. Well when the team lost, we had them again (same crew) right after the first game.



Well during this next game the coach for that team got a T from me, carrying over something from the first game (big no-no for me). Then I had to T up one of his players for throwing the ball at the head of the opponent, after that player that got hit was fouled. My partner called the foul, but I saw the kid throwing the ball at the opponent. It was clear as day.



So immediately after the game because we are in the COVID issue and would not allow us to use the locker room continuously and store our things in that locker room, our bags were right off the court. When the game was over after an overtime session, the coach approaches me and threatens that he was going to call the assignor and called me a disgrace. Well, I was literally on the basketball court and not even near the locker room, I ejected him with a quickness and told the table he had been ejected from the game. Then the coach standing next to me tried to tell the table, "The game is over, you cannot do anything the game is over."



So I went to my car and filed what is called a "Special Report" which is used for all ejections in all states (except for soccer for some reason). I have wifi so I filled out the report and happen to have my computer in the car because I was leaving to go out of town. So without hesitation, I filled out the report. While driving to my destination (3 hours away) the assignor asked me not to file the report, even know I was following the rules. I was pissed beyond belief, but it was too damn late. I had already submitted the report and cannot take it back. And I am a very experienced official that had to deal with this, what about the guy that just started or has 5 years in?



The schools helped create this situation. Normally I would have not been anywhere near the court and on our way to the locker room. Secondly, they think because they can do whatever they wish without consequences. But a T is the same as any other foul, but it is not. IJS.



Peace

I assign for 24 schools and I could never imagine asking an official to do something like this. It's not ethical, for one....


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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Sun Mar 07, 2021, 01:55pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich View Post
I assign for 24 schools and I could never imagine asking an official to do something like this. It's not ethical, for one....
IT was shocking coming from the person it came from (that is all I will say). But if the coach of the other team saw this happen as well as other participants, I am the one getting in trouble, not the assignor. I have known it to happen to officials that did not file the report when they ejected a player.

In Indiana alone (and this incident was in Illinois BTW) you have to report every technical foul given and the reasoning. It affects their being able to host or properly get certain privileges if they get so many of these actions. You have to fill out those reports. And I would have never thought to even eject the coach if he did not approach me. He should have known better. I am actually very disappointed to be asked to not report something that clearly happened in front of others.

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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Sun Mar 07, 2021, 02:12pm
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Accountability ...

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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
In Indiana alone ... you have to report every technical foul given and the reasoning. It affects their being able to host or properly get certain privileges if they get so many of these actions. You have to fill out those reports.
It's not just paperwork, it's all about accountability.

Here in Connecticut all ejections are to be reported to the CIAC (state interscholastic sports governing body) via our assigner (first to assigner who forwards it to the state, never directly from official to state). CIAC then contacts the school principal who (with the athletic director) is responsible to make sure that the ejected coach or player doesn't participate in any basketball game at any level until the player or coach sits out one game of the level in which the player or coach was ejected.

In addition, here in my little comer of Connecticut, all unsporting technical fouls (player and/or coaches) are to be reported to our assigner. He may contact the athletic director and/or principal depending on the severity of the unsporting technical foul, or the cumulative number of unsporting technical fouls during the season.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Mar 07, 2021 at 02:48pm.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Sun Mar 07, 2021, 02:20pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
IT was shocking coming from the person it came from (that is all I will say). But if the coach of the other team saw this happen as well as other participants, I am the one getting in trouble, not the assignor. I have known it to happen to officials that did not file the report when they ejected a player.



In Indiana alone (and this incident was in Illinois BTW) you have to report every technical foul given and the reasoning. It affects their being able to host or properly get certain privileges if they get so many of these actions. You have to fill out those reports. And I would have never thought to even eject the coach if he did not approach me. He should have known better. I am actually very disappointed to be asked to not report something that clearly happened in front of others.



Peace


We have a "loss of coaching box" report. So player technicals get no report, but bench technicals do.


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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Sun Mar 07, 2021, 02:22pm
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Credibility ...

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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
It was shocking coming from the person it came from ... He should have known better. I am actually very disappointed to be asked to not report something that clearly happened in front of others.
It's bad enough to be thrown under the bus in for something that happened in front of a few people, it's far worse to be thrown under the bus for something that happened in front of partners, coaches, players, athletic director, site director, trainers, police officer in the corner, principal, fans, parents, and the press.

What happens to an official's credibility when something like this (report quenched) happens? Everybody (officials, coaches, etc.) knows everybody in the world of local/state high school basketball, and word spreads quickly.

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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Mar 07, 2021 at 07:01pm.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Sun Mar 07, 2021, 02:48pm
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Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
It's bad enough to be thrown under the bus in for something that happened in front of a few people, it's far worse to be thrown under the bus for something that happened in front of partners, coaches, players, athletic directer, site directer, trainers, poice officer in the corner, principal, fans, parents, and the press.

What happens to an official's credibility when something like this (report quenched) happens? Everybody (officials, coaches, etc.) knows everybody in the world of local/state high school basketball, and word spreads quickly.
To be fair, I was not thrown under the bus. I was asked not to file a report based on a ruling I made. I still filed the report and it was too late to not file the report. If not confronted in the doorway I would not have done it so fast.

I did not mention that part of the story in my comments here because it should have been enough to get throw out, but when you confront me and act like "We should talk" that was too much for me. I even said to the coach when he tried to talk to me in the doorway, "So you want to talk so you can lie about what I said and misrepresent the conversation....not me." If that had never happened, I might have waited. But I contacted the assignor before I left the building and he got back to me while I was in the car and asked, "Could you have walked away." I said no with a few sentences and started writing my report.

I do not say any of this in order to call out the supervisor, I am saying this because I think we are the last people they think of when these games are going on and only consider that they do not want to give us any support when the participants act badly. They think we just walk in and do games and do not realize all the preparation that we do before getting to a game and sometimes the conversations afterward.

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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Sun Mar 07, 2021, 02:56pm
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Quenched Report ...

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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
To be fair, I was not thrown under the bus.
Only because the report was already on its way. I'm not giving your assigner a pass on this. His request alone was inexcusable.

Had your assigner successfully quenched the report by asking that you not send it, and if you had complied, that would leave bus tire tracks all over you.

It would be as if the technical foul you called, and the unsporting behavior that spawned it, never occurred, but everybody in the gym would know otherwise, that both the unsporting behavior and the technical foul really did occur, all within your official jurisdiction.

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Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Everybody (officials, coaches, etc.) knows everybody in the world of local/state high school basketball, and word spreads quickly.
You actually did your assigner (and yourself) a favor by sending your report to the state so quickly, unable to even consider pulling it back.

Cover ups are often worse than what's being covered up.

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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Mar 07, 2021 at 04:02pm.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 08, 2021, 10:25am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
IT was shocking coming from the person it came from (that is all I will say). But if the coach of the other team saw this happen as well as other participants, I am the one getting in trouble, not the assignor. I have known it to happen to officials that did not file the report when they ejected a player.

In Indiana alone (and this incident was in Illinois BTW) you have to report every technical foul given and the reasoning. It affects their being able to host or properly get certain privileges if they get so many of these actions. You have to fill out those reports. And I would have never thought to even eject the coach if he did not approach me. He should have known better. I am actually very disappointed to be asked to not report something that clearly happened in front of others.

Peace
This is truly shocking IMO and pretty poor support from the assigner. In all honesty if an assigner told me that I would tell him that I had no interest in working for him if that was the type of atmosphere he was going to provide for his officials.

Our state association has said these are the specific types of intractions that they want to be reported, because if they don't get a report there is basically nothing they can do.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 08, 2021, 02:44pm
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High school assigners asking officials to ignore unsporting behavior or not file ejection reports with the state does not surprise me one inkling. These are the same assigners who won't try to get their officials a nominal pay increase because "the schools have no money" and they are scared to death of losing their gigs.

It is funny, I always hear how "college officials" let coaches get away with so much because "It's a coaches' game," and while that latter part is a fact, I have caught FAR more flack for handling business in high school games than college games over my career.

At the high school level I have had partners try to get me to overturn my T's and ejections, I have had partners kiss the coach's rear end the entire game clearly undermining me, I have had assigners question my T's to the nth degree, I have worked with partners who won't handle business because "I don't want to do paperwork" and "These fans didn't come to see us." And yet, I continuously hear preaching about how high school sports are an "extension of the classroom" and we have such an important role to play. It is a bunch of hypocrisy, is all I have to say.

At the college level, while there is plenty of emphasis on being a good communicator (just because you call T's does not mean you are a bad communicator - it is a rule in the book) and making sure your T's show up on film, the reality is that if you are unwilling to handle business, you will have problems in your games and you will not last very long with that reputation. I know of officials who have allowed coaches to carry on the entire game - then the usually well-behaved coach on the other bench starts acting up and calls the assigner after the game asking why the crew allowed the other coach to get away with murder during the game. There was a college game in my area that had a bench-clearing brawl earlier this year - the crew came out of it with one technical foul and no ejections. How do you think this went over for them after the game? I have caught more flack at the college level for letting coaches and players get away with too much than for having a quick trigger. Meanwhile I am just as, if not more tolerant, at the high school level and it seems every T I call has to be taken personally and made into a big charade.

Also, every time I have called a technical foul on a college coach and he calls the assigner to complain about it/me after the game, the assigner asks him for the film. And either the coach doesn't send it in (I wonder why?) or the film very clearly shows that it was justified. I have had high school assigners, on the other hand, automatically jump to the conclusion that something must have been handled improperly by me without even looking at the tape.

All that to say - none of what JRut experienced with the idiot coach and his spineless assigner shocks me one bit.

Last edited by SC Official; Mon Mar 08, 2021 at 02:51pm.
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