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BigT Mon Jan 11, 2021 01:08pm

Personal space
 
HS basketball game.

https://www.ksl.com/watchit/event/47451

This play happens at the 24:00 mark or with seconds to go in the 1st quarter.

In HS with LGP there no distance involved between defender and offensive player.

In other levels they have the cylinder.

If anyone have the chance could you tell me if this was a CC or ICC and your reasons.

Thanks in advance

PS I tried to figure out how to just get a segment of this video to show instead of sending the whole game but I suck.

JRutledge Mon Jan 11, 2021 01:18pm

He flopped. You going to do all the antics while in many ways while bumping the ball handler, you are not getting much benefit of the doubt. Being hit in the face is not an automatic foul. The ball handler is allowed his verticality too. The only thing about the other levels, they address this in detail while the NF just never addresses the changes of the day in the game or the philosophies. I have no issues with the call.

Peace

BigT Mon Jan 11, 2021 01:20pm

He actually gets a bloody nose. Since he was physically hit I cant tell how much he aggerated the contact or reacted to his nose being hit.

I do like the call yet by HS rule isnt he allowed to get as close as possible without making contact?

Thanks again for your input.

JRutledge Mon Jan 11, 2021 02:13pm

I will put it this way. I see hands on the ball handler too which was before the contact. The ball handler did not appear to seek the contact of the defender, the defender was touching the ball handler. So again if that is the case I would rule this contact with the face incidental. If he seeked out to make contact with the elbow, then maybe.

Again this is a situation I think the NF needs to address better but just because you had contact with an elbow, does not mean it is automatically a foul.

Peace

Raymond Mon Jan 11, 2021 02:20pm

Defender is moving his head forward at the time of contact, unfortunately he led with his nose. That he is the one who ended up blood doesn't mean his opponent is responsible for the contact. I don't see what R22 did that we could deem illegal in order to give him a PC foul.

Yes, NCAA-Men's this would be a cylinder play.

BigT Mon Jan 11, 2021 02:26pm

Thank you both.

BillyMac Mon Jan 11, 2021 04:25pm

Tough Call ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1040902)
Defender is moving his head forward at the time of contact, unfortunately he led with his nose.

As did the ball handler, who led with his forehead.

Nothing? Incidental contact? Double foul? Defensive foul? Hand check? Player control foul?

https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.D...=0&w=300&h=300

Jfpdi Mon Jan 11, 2021 04:45pm

Good foul call for hands on the ball handler. I would deem the head to head contact incidental.

BillyMac Mon Jan 11, 2021 05:10pm

Dead Ball Contact ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jfpdi (Post 1040907)
Good foul call for hands on the ball handler. I would deem the head to head contact incidental.

Not necessary to deem the subsequent contact after the hand check foul incidental or illegal unless one deems the head to head contact foul(s) to be intentional or flagrant dead ball contact (which they weren't).

Jfpdi Mon Jan 11, 2021 06:04pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1040908)
Not necessary to deem the subsequent contact after the hand check foul incidental or illegal unless one deems the head to head contact foul(s) to be intentional or flagrant dead ball contact (which they weren't).

Agreed. But once I see blood on a player I am getting my partners together to see if anyone had anything on the play that would require a call. Most coaches are going to ask how come his player is bleeding and being able to explain it was incidental contact would probably be helpful.

BillyMac Mon Jan 11, 2021 06:12pm

Communication ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jfpdi (Post 1040909)
Agreed. But once I see blood on a player I am getting my partners together to see if anyone had anything on the play that would require a call. Most coaches are going to ask how come his player is bleeding and being able to explain it was incidental contact would probably be helpful.

Good game management.

Kansas Ref Sat Jan 16, 2021 11:28am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1040910)
Good game management.

*I admit that its unfortunate when this happens in our games; sad for the injured player and an explanation to coach for non- calling will often be necessary. I concur, Good game management!

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Thu Jan 21, 2021 08:18pm

1a) The Principal of Verticality has been in the NFHS and NCAA Men's Rules Committees nomenclature since at least the 1950s and the NBC The predecessor of the NFHS and NCAA Men's Rules Committees.).

1b) The Principal of Verticality has also been a part of the FIBA nomenclature but not part of the NAGWS (AIAW: women's college). It became a part of the NCAA Women's Rules Committee when the NCAA supplanted the AIAW and merged various parts of the NAGWS Rules into the NCAA Women's Rules.

1c) The Cylinder of Verticality is not a new concept. It has been part of the FIBA nomenclature since at least the 1980s.

1d) Despite the NCAA Men's and Women's recent addition of Cylinder of Verticality to its nomenclature, the Principal of Verticality has always (with apologies to the late J. Dallas Shirley) implied the Cylinder of Verticality. The Principal of Verticality cannot exist without the Cylinder of Verticality.


2a) I have a Hand Check Foul by W3 on R22 at 0:02.5 on the Game Clock, which would end this discussion now but since the Common Foul (CF) was not called let us press on.

2b) From 0:02.5 on W3 has breached R22's Cylinder of Verticality and at this point W3 is responsible for any contact between W3 and R22. And at 0:01.8 W3 and R22 bump heads. This is a CF by W3.

MTD, Sr.

BillyMac Mon Jan 25, 2021 05:58pm

Automatic (Pointer Sisters, 1983) ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1040900)
... just because you had contact with an elbow, does not mean it is automatically a foul.

Agree, and the NFHS agrees with both of us:

2012-13 Points Of Emphasis Contact Above The Shoulders
Examples of illegal contact above the shoulders and resulting penalties.
1. Contact with a stationary elbow may be incidental or a common foul.


Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1040900)
...this is a situation I think the NF needs to address better ...

Agree, like having it in the current rulebook and casebook instead of just being an eight year old Point Of Emphasis.

Valley Man Wed Jan 27, 2021 11:18am

3 seems to be what we call a "sh^^ put-er in-er"

go back before the play and he attempts a well contest 3 on the corner and wants a foul

then he does this

agree I like the call


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