West Virginia-Gonzaga
 

Very interesting play at 8:50ish in the 1H. WVU is dribbling in the backcourt. Zag defender swipes it away toward the sideline then saves it from going OOB. Ball sails into the frontcourt where it deflects off WVU player’s leg into the backcourt where it is then touched by his teammate.

In FED this is definitely a violation. In NCAA-M I also would believe this should be a violation because the defense did not deflect the ball in the frontcourt. Someone may need to check me on that.

Any team control considerations?

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I didn’t think about that and didn’t notice if the shot clock reset or not.

Block/charge play at 4:29 2H

Play #1:

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Play #2:

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Peace

I think the the next B/C play a on the next possession or two is a good one for comparison but I couldnt tell if it was RA or not.

On first play, yes, that's a backcourt as there was PC&TC, TC did not change, offense was last to touch in FC, and first to touch in BC.

So are you saying that this is still a violation at the NCAA level even though it was a loose ball caused by the defense? I have to go look at the rule again because I was kind of confused considering the BC rule only seemed to deal with a play in the FC that goes in the BC.

Peace

Oh yeah, I guess that aspect would still apply. I felt like I was forgetting something in my beakdown of the play.

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On this play, does it matter that the ball was loose / deflected from the BC?

Does NCAAM require LGP before the offensive player leaves the floor or before he starts any upward motion?

imo, These plays are easy BC and PC in FED and NCAAW,

For the back court play, here's the wording from last year's rulebook:

9-12 Art. 5. A pass or any other loose ball (including when a player in control of the ball loses control of the ball when a defensive player bats or deflects it out of his control) in the front court that is deflected by a defensive player, which causes the ball to go into the backcourt may be recovered by either team even if the offense was the last to touch the ball before it went into the backcourt.

Based on the above wording, there doesn't seem to be an exception for a ball that is batted/deflected by the defense in back court.

However, I think the spirit of the rule is not to penalize the offense with a back court violation when there is a loose ball caused by the defense.

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At one time there was an upward motion aspect to the player control foul, but that was eliminated.



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Clip 1:

I have a shooting foul on Blue 5 before the backcourt play.

As the rule is written, that is a BCV in NCAA-M. There was no change in team control and 9-12.5 only applies to defensive deflections in the frontcourt. If the spirit/intent of the rule is for this play to be legal, Art Hyland needs to issue an interpretation and the rule needs updated in the offseason. I am not faulting the crew for passing on it because it is an odd play. In FED, there is no room for debate.

The transition play is a clear PC foul. CC.

Clip 2:

When I watched it in real time I had a block and that's likely what I'd call. In slo-mo it looks like the defender is legal before the shooter goes airborne. Right foot may be in the RA but it's very close. I had to mute the sound to avoid Bilas's bloviating.

I'm thinking that will happen. It wouldn't be the first time Art and crew failed to account for realistic scenarios when making rule changes. Attention to detail isn't their strong suit.

Does "foot on the line" equate to "in the RA?" If he is on the line, its by a very miniscule amount. From the angle that the L has, I'm not positive he would have known for sure anyway.

Yes. The RA is treated the same as the sideline or endline (i.e. if any part of the foot is touching, you are in). The RA is more restrictive in that even if a foot is hovering over the line, you are considered in.

More Restrictive ...
 

Wow. So it doesn't follow the high school creed of, "You are where you are until you get where you're going".

Although there is at least one exception in high school to the high school creed: The three second count continues if this player lifts the foot in the lane so that neither foot is touching inside the lane. To stop the count this player must have both feet touch the court outside of the lane.

I sent an email to JD about this because I am not convinced this is not a violation under NCAA Rules. Or at least it is not incredibly clear for sure.

Peace

As the BCV rule is written, it would indeed be a BCV.

However, I'm going to suggest that the intent of the rule would be otherwise. The rule is written for the common situation, not some bizarre thing like this. I'm OK with a person not calling a violation here in NCAA as the clear intent of the rule was to not penalize the offensive team for a lose ball that is loose because of a defensive bat/deflection.

Update ruling: Email with JD and Art Hyland
 

I wanted to update my correspondence with the NCA on this play.

I emailed JD Collings a few days ago looking for clarification. He emailed me back and said that he would pass this off to Art Hyland in the email to answer as to whether this was a BC violation in NCAA Rules.

Art then responded yesterday and said that he felt this was not a BC violation. Mr. Hyland said that he felt that the rules did not consider this situation to take place in the BC and then go to the FC. So as a result this is basically in the spirit of the rules that were written in the past. So this was ruled properly and was not called a violation and the NCAA supports that position.

I would not be surprised if there is an editorial change or either case plays that will support that ruling by Art.

But I thought we should know what is proper here. Also, this is under NF rules still a BC violation by all accounts as team control was still in the hands of the WVU team IMO.

Peace

Do I get a gold star or something?

You certainly get something. That was exactly what he addressed in the email. I was summarizing, but you were spot on my friend.

Peace

The official notification from Bulletin No. 1 – December 14, 2020 Teleconference Follow-Up:

"2. A1 is dribbling the ball in his backcourt when B1 bats the ball toward the division line. The ball crosses the division line into the front court where it strikes A2 in the leg and rebounds back across the division line into the backcourt. A1 is the first to touch the ball in the backcourt.

• Ruling – Legal play. The intent to Rule 9-12.5 is to permit Team A to be the first to touch in the backcourt whenever there is a deflection by the defense. Unfortunately, the rule as written implies that the deflection must occur in the “front court”. This interpretation now clarifies this omission by indicating that the rule is in effect when the deflection by the defense occurs in either the front court or the backcourt. (Rule 9-12.5) "

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Shall I pat myself on the back for this one? LOL!!!!

Not really but I can dream.

Peace

Hey, give the OP some credit, too! =) We can’t be sure Art and JD didn’t get inquiries from elsewhere, but to me it sure seems like SC saw something, which begot JRut’s video download and attention, which begot his email, which begot (I’m skipping a few steps) Art’s national bulletin.

Yay, Forum! That’s pretty cool.


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But I am the one that contacted JD and Art? LOL!!!

Seriously this was a great request and a great discussion. I probably was not the only person to contact them on this play either. But it was interesting to hear from them both.

Peace

They are probably more receptive to feedback than most realize. When John Adams was national coordinator, on two separate occasions he engaged me with multiple email exchanges in regards to the periodic in-season rules quizzes.

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I have met JD several times, very easy to talk to. He has been at many camps I have been to and is very open to concerns you might have. I was not surprised he responded and even responded the way he did. He actually passed the email on to Art and told me Art would address the issue. Art's responses were also very good.

Side note. John Adams used to run a D2 Conference in my region. He never hired me for that conference but his camps were great. He used to only charge $50 for all his conferences which also he used for when he was the supervisor for the Horizon League. Well the funny part of all of this, he was direct and very helpful. He now is on the Indiana High School Athletic Association's Basketball Official's Facebook page offering advice to officials that work games at a relative's games. He even told everyone on that site the good job of a crew he observed. He can seem like a guy with an edge but seems like a very nice person overall. He even sent me a private message asking me about an NF rule he was not clear on.

I think they were good people at their core and their position has never been too big for them. Both JD and John are Indiana guys and are down to earth for the most part. I respect both of them tremendously.

Peace