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  #61 (permalink)  
Old Sun Aug 23, 2020, 01:17pm
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Both Jumpers Not Same As Same Jumpers ...

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Originally Posted by LRZ View Post
Holy Grail? Hardly.


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Originally Posted by LRZ View Post
The 6-3-8 note does not say "the same jumpers." "Both jumpers" can refer to the two players who enter the center circle for the second attempt--ie, replacements like A2 ...
How about a substitute (not a replacement), as in Situation 2 (since there doesn't appear to be a "designated jumper" as 3-3-2 states, 3-3-2 may only refer to 6.4.1 SITUATION C)?

Another great point by LRZ. His hits just keep on coming (reminds me of listening to AM radio on the beach in the summer as a teenager).

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I will now retire to the sidelines ...
And a banner with your username will be hoisted up into the rafters. And maybe a promotion to Esteemed Forum Member? Not too shabby for a guy with less than a thousand Forum posts.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Aug 23, 2020 at 05:35pm.
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  #62 (permalink)  
Old Sun Aug 23, 2020, 01:57pm
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Consensus ...

6.4.1 SITUATION C: Following the jump between A1 and B1 to start the first quarter, the jump ball: (b) is touched simultaneously by A2 and B2 and it then goes out of bounds; (c) is simultaneously controlled by A2 and B2; In (b) and (c), A2 and B2 will jump in the center restraining circle regardless of where the ball went out or where the held ball occurred.(4-12-1; 4-28-1)

So, after over sixty posts in this thread, are we all agreed that these two specific situations (above) are the only two specific situations where the rules designate jumpers, who cannot be replaced, or substituted for (unless injured, bleeding, disqualified)?

And that in all other possible jump ball situations, jumpers may be replaced (a player already on the floor), or substituted for (eligible substitutes, i.e., sit a tick, where appropriate, i.e., overtime jump ball).

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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Aug 23, 2020 at 02:01pm.
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  #63 (permalink)  
Old Sun Aug 23, 2020, 02:37pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Start the game by giving the ball to the visiting team and use the alternating possession arrow after that, including the overtime periods.
If and when Michigan allows basketball again, they've issued return to play guidelines for basketball. One of the items contained therein eliminates jump balls.
  • The visiting team gets the ball to start the game and the home team gets the next arrow.
  • Overtimes start with a coin-toss to determine possession and arrow.
I guess a flipping coin will now be part of my basketball gear for the coming year.
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  #64 (permalink)  
Old Sun Aug 23, 2020, 02:41pm
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Ancient Times ...

It just dawned on me what old timers like Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. and Nevaderef are referring to when they talked about pre-1985, pre-alternating possession arrow, ancient times, and why these situations may be confusing for some of us, and controversial for others.

Let's take a close look at a very simple jump ball situation: During the jump ball between A1 and B1 to start the first quarter, A1 and B1 both simultaneously tap the ball out of bounds.

Pre-1985, pre-alternating possession arrow, this is how we would have handled it. Jumpers A1 and B1 would be "designated" (no replacement or substitute allowed) to re-jump in the closest of three jump ball circles.

This would be handled as any other situation where the ball simultaneously went out of bounds off of any two players (even in non-jump situations). The two players who simultaneously touched a ball that went out of bounds would be "designated" (no replacement or substitute allowed) to jump in the closest of three jump ball circles.

Back then, not every jump ball situation resulted in "designated jumpers" (i.e., ball lodged between flange and backboard), but many did, including some of the situations that we've been discussing in this thread.

Now post-1985, post-alternating possession arrow, we use the alternating possession arrow instead of real jump balls in situations where there would have been real jump balls previously to the 1985 alternating possession arrow, except jump balls to start the game, or the overtime(s).

In 1985 when the NFHS Rules Committee adopted the alternating possession arrow for all (previous) jump ball or held‐ball situations except the start of the game and each extra period, they appear to have failed to change all the language to fully cover all situations that could possibly lead to a pre-1985, pre-alternating possession arrow, real jump ball (many with "designated jumpers").

Did the NFHS intentionally leave out many "designated jumper" situations, thus allowing replacement or substitute jumpers, or was it a mistake?
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Aug 23, 2020 at 05:38pm.
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  #65 (permalink)  
Old Sun Aug 23, 2020, 02:46pm
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Rock, Paper, Scissors ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stat-Man View Post
Michigan: The visiting team gets the ball to start the game and the home team gets the next arrow. Overtimes start with a coin-toss to determine possession and arrow.
Like it, except the coin toss part. Start the overtime period like the three previous periods, with the alternating possession arrow.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Aug 23, 2020 at 03:16pm.
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  #66 (permalink)  
Old Sun Aug 23, 2020, 02:58pm
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1909 VDB Lincoln Wheat Penny ...

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Originally Posted by Stat-Man View Post
I guess a flipping coin will now be part of my basketball gear for the coming year.
Cool. I never officiated a sport that needed a coin. I would get a really cool coin, a Morgan Silver Dollar, or one of those modern gold colored coins (Sacagawea Dollars, Presidential Dollars).
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36)
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  #67 (permalink)  
Old Sun Aug 23, 2020, 03:01pm
LRZ LRZ is offline
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Stat-Man, when I referee soccer, I hide my whistle behind my back, put it in one hand or the other, and have the visiting captain choose "left" or "right."

It's not a "coin toss," but it works.
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  #68 (permalink)  
Old Sun Aug 23, 2020, 03:11pm
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Un-Retire ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by LRZ View Post
. when I referee soccer, I hide my whistle behind my back, put it in one hand or the other, and have the visiting captain choose "left" or "right." It's not a "coin toss," but it works.
But that's against Michigan basketball rules. The rule says "coin toss", it means coin toss, not whistle guess.

Wait a minute? I thought LRZ retired from this thread? We already hoisted the banner with his username up into the rafters.

Well I guess that if Bob Cousy, Michael Jordan, and Magic Johnson can do it, so can LRZ.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Aug 23, 2020 at 05:39pm.
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  #69 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 24, 2020, 12:41pm
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Was It A Mistake ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Did the NFHS intentionally leave out many "designated jumper" situations, thus allowing replacement or substitute jumpers, or was it a mistake?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
6-3-8 Note: During a jump ball, a jumper is not required to face his/her own
basket, provided he/she is in the proper half of the center restraining circle.
The jumper is also not required to jump and attempt to touch the tossed
ball. However, if neither jumper touches the ball it should be tossed again
with both jumpers being ordered to jump and try to touch the ball.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LRZ View Post
"Both jumpers" can refer to the two players who enter the center circle for the second attempt ...
Yes it certainly can, but does it?

Because it can also refer to the previous jumpers, but does it?



I don't blame myself, or anybody else, for being confused, or wrong, regarding these situations and interpretations.

I blame the stupid NFHS.

To the NFHS:

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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Aug 24, 2020 at 02:42pm.
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  #70 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 24, 2020, 02:19pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
But that's against Michigan basketball rules. The rule says "coin toss", it means coin toss, not whistle guess.
If no one enforces all of the rules all of the time, why do some keep focusing on what the rules always dictate and use that to seemingly end their discussion/argument? Seems hypocritical doesn't it? Hmmm.

Love you BM.
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  #71 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 24, 2020, 02:23pm
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Key Word: Trying ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
But that's against Michigan basketball rules. The rule says "coin toss", it means coin toss, not whistle guess.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
If no one enforces all of the rules all of the time, why do some keep focusing on what the rules always dictate and use that to seemingly end their discussion/argument? Seems hypocritical doesn't it?
I was trying to be funny.

Hiding inside my secret underground COVID shelter is getting to me.

I had to bring a baby gift from my neighbor to my daughter's house yesterday (I wore a mask, didn't touch anybody).

I didn't want to leave. Didn't want to go home. Took me fifteen minutes to leave after I said "goodbye" and threw kisses to my three grandsons.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Aug 24, 2020 at 02:38pm.
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  #72 (permalink)  
Old Mon Aug 24, 2020, 11:25pm
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If NFHS dropped the ball on editing language after the transition from jump balls the entire game to jump balls only to start the game and overtime periods, I wouldn't be surprised. NFHS rulebooks and tests have been known to contain editing mistakes, questions with no correct answer, and changes for little reason, such as "must" to "shall" in the 2019-20 edition of the rulebook, and the subsequent changes back for the 2020-21 edition.
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  #73 (permalink)  
Old Tue Aug 25, 2020, 10:13am
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Let's Party Like It's 1985 (With Apologies To Prince) ...

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Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
If NFHS dropped the ball on editing language after the transition from jump balls the entire game to jump balls only to start the game and overtime periods, I wouldn't be surprised ...
This is my opinion on what happened in 1985 (my fourth year officiating basketball).

The NFHS wanted to simply get rid of all real jump balls except start/overtime. Sounds simple enough right, and then they put a ton of effort into explaining how the new alternating possession arrow and procedures would work, figuring that they could just leave start/overtime jump ball language pretty much as it already existed with little change. They figured that the start/overtime jump ball would be the same, unchanged, as it was in the past.

Of course, the use of the alternating possession arrow (as opposed to a real jump ball) never requires any "designated" players.

In getting rid of all non-start/non-overtime jump balls from the rulebook and casebook, they inadvertently got rid of some non-start/non-overtime situations that could actually occur in a start/overtime jump ball, for example, two jumpers simultaneously tapping the jump ball of bounds.

Previous to 1985 we all knew exactly how to handle this very simple situation, whether it occurred at start/overtime, or in the middle of the game, even between two players who were not jumpers. These situations were handled with a jump ball between the two players involved, in other words "designated jumpers", who couldn't be substituted for, or replaced.

For those of us old enough to have officiated before 1985, we remember those pre-1985 situations, and how to handle them, with lots (although not all, i.e., flange/backboard) of situations with "designated jumpers", and very strict interpretations of not allowing substitutes/replacements for "designated jumpers".

Younger officials can only look at the current rulebook and casebook language, and see only two very specific situations regarding "designated jumpers", and far less strict interpretations regarding substitutes/replacements for "designated jumpers".

I find it very hard to believe that the NFHS intended (as in "intent and purpose") for only two very specific situations regarding "designated jumpers" with very strict limits on substitution/replacement of "designated jumpers":

6.4.1 SITUATION C: Following the jump between A1 and B1 to start the first quarter, the jump ball: (b) is touched simultaneously by A2 and B2 and it then goes out of bounds; (c) is simultaneously controlled by A2 and B2; In (b) and (c), A2 and B2 will jump in the center restraining circle regardless of where the ball went out or where the held ball occurred.(4-12-1; 4-28-1)

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
... questions with no correct answer ...
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Aug 25, 2020 at 05:12pm.
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  #74 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 28, 2020, 02:00pm
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Quote, Unquote ...

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Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Wow. I didn't think that this quote would add any sense of closure to this issue, but it seems to have worked.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:36)
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  #75 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 28, 2020, 02:42pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
...



Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Wow. I didn't think that this quote would add any sense of closure to this issue, but it seems to have worked.
We know that won't stop you
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