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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 13, 2020, 10:59am
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https://video.foxnews.com/v/6131870136001#sp=show-clips

I googled for other clips and this one is a pretty clear clip (good focus).

It almost looks like the shooter actually grabs a tied headband because the girls hair can be seen in what looks to be a pony tail that flops away as she is pulled to the floor. Either way doesn't matter in that clip she is clearly jerked to the floor from something on her head being pulled and it is blatantly flagrant.

I would like to see extended video of the elbow mentioned earlier but couldn't find it.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 13, 2020, 11:07am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MOVBlue View Post
https://video.foxnews.com/v/6131870136001#sp=show-clips

I googled for other clips and this one is a pretty clear clip (good focus).

It almost looks like the shooter actually grabs a tied headband because the girls hair can be seen in what looks to be a pony tail that flops away as she is pulled to the floor. Either way doesn't matter in that clip she is clearly jerked to the floor from something on her head being pulled and it is blatantly flagrant.

I would like to see extended video of the elbow mentioned earlier but couldn't find it.
That was flagrant and premeditated. She did clearly grab the headband and yank her down.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 13, 2020, 12:58pm
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There's a lot going on there in a quick time frame.

There's a late, unneeded illegal box out on the shooter who then retaliates and grabs the base of ponytail/hair and flings opponent to ground.

If the crowd is to be believed there was some build towards this.

Call the foul on the box out, call the flagrant foul on the toss down. Eject the tosser.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 15, 2020, 04:23pm
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I hear someone yell "number 14 just shoulder checked.." and 14 is the one who yanks. I did not feel there was an illegal box out on shot but whatever...

Point is, as trail official, stay with shooter/play. Close in/down on shots, not the opposite.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 15, 2020, 06:44pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
Point is, as trail official, stay with shooter/play.
How long? The trail also has rebounding duties and the ball was being rebounded by then. Which place is more likely to need coverage? I'd say rebounding. Once the shot has hit the rim, I'm turning my attention to that.
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Last edited by Camron Rust; Sun Feb 16, 2020 at 12:46am.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 15, 2020, 06:45pm
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Easier Done In A Three Person Game ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
The trail also as rebounding duties and the ball was being rebounded by then. Which place is more likely to need coverage? I'd say rebounding.
Agree. Good point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
Point is, as trail official, stay with shooter/play.
For as long as reasonably possible in a two person game, especially a boys game (goaltending/basket interference).

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Last edited by BillyMac; Sat Feb 15, 2020 at 06:47pm.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 15, 2020, 08:04pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Agree. Good point.



For as long as reasonably possible in a two person game, especially a boys game (goaltending/basket interference).

This wasn't a 2-person game. He needs to stay with the active matchup in his primary. Other 2 officials can handle rebounding.

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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 16, 2020, 01:52pm
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Disadvantaged ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
This wasn't a 2-person game.
I know, and I also know that it wasn't a boys game, I just wanted to put in good word for those of us who are disadvantaged to almost always work in a two person system, where the lead is never going to catch goaltending, or basket interference, and often needs help with rebounding fouls.

Even with my lack of three person experience, I am fully aware that the three person game is a completely different story.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Feb 16, 2020 at 02:02pm.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 16, 2020, 02:02pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
I know, and I also know that it wasn't a boys game, I just wanted to put in good word for those of us who are disadvantaged to almost always work in a two person system, where the lead is never going to catch goaltending, or basket interference, and often needs help with rebounding fouls.

Even with my lack of three person experience, I know that the three person game is a completely different story.
Even in a two-man game, the first priority is to take the shooter up and down and make sure there's no illegal contact associated.

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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 16, 2020, 02:44pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
Even in a two-man game, the first priority is to take the shooter up and down and make sure there's no illegal contact associated.

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True, but after the shooter is down and the shot is over, you have to move on at some point....other action and matchups become higher priority.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 16, 2020, 02:49pm
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Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
True, but after the shooter is down and the shot is over, you have to move on at some point....other action and matchups become higher priority.
If I have a defender who may take out a shooter after they become grounded or there has been contention between the two players, I'm watching for that.

I rather miss a run-of-the-mill rebounding foul than miss a non-basketball play that ends up on YouTube.

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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 16, 2020, 03:52pm
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Protect The Shooter ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
Even in a two-man game, the first priority is to take the shooter up and down and make sure there's no illegal contact associated.
"Protect the shooter" (and in this odd case, the defender).

At some point after the shot is released and the shooter lands, the trail has to start looking for other things (goaltending, basket interference, rebounding fouls).

But at what point?

Ay, there’s the rub!

(Yes, we have Shakespeare's Hamlet quoted on The Forum. My high school English teacher, Mr Baumgartner, would be quite proud of me.)
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Feb 16, 2020 at 04:03pm.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 16, 2020, 03:55pm
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Official's Worst Nightmare ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
... miss a non-basketball play that ends up on YouTube.
How true.

Fifteen seconds of fame that none of us want.

With everybody's grandmother having a high quality video camera in their cellphone, everything that we do can eventually end up on the YouTube, or on the Twitter, or on the Instagram (not sure what that is).

I often end my pregame with, "Let's not screw up".

Sometimes I substitute another word for "screw".
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Feb 16, 2020 at 06:56pm.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 16, 2020, 05:28pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
How long? The trail also has rebounding duties and the ball was being rebounded by then. Which place is more likely to need coverage? I'd say rebounding. Once the shot has hit the rim, I'm turning my attention to that.
For as long as it is necessary. Trail may have rebounding duties but I would say that, as a general statement, they fall within the Trails PCA. IOW, if the ball rebounds on C's side, and there are only 2 players there, I, as Trail, am not even thinking about watching those two players. That area is likely to need more coverage and the C can get that. T can turn their attention to rebounding if it is applicable to their area. I think Raymond's points were valid. In the video after the shot, there were 4 players that I would consider to be next to each other. Two opponents were near the hoop and then the shooter/defender. There was plenty of space between all other players, especially in the Trails PCA. That space negates attention. Soooo... T should have been right there in closed down position and staying there with those two players until transition begins. Then, the new T takes over watching those players. Again, bottom line is that T began waaay too far away from the play and lost sight of the two primary players in his area.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 16, 2020, 05:38pm
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The Buck Stops Here ...

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Originally Posted by bucky View Post
For as long as it is necessary. Trail may have rebounding duties ...
Don't forget about the goaltending and basket interference duties in a two person boys high school game.

I agree with Raymond. First priority is the shooter/defender matchup, things can happen even after the shooter lands (illegal displacement box out is not uncommon).

When to look away from the shooter/defender matchup?

We get paid the big bucks because we know when to look for other things.
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