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Player989random Sat Feb 08, 2020 10:49pm

Three D1 Refs Suing NCAA & Alliance Affiliated Leagues
 
https://www.courthousenews.com/older...them-from-d-1/

I heard about this while I was at a game the other day. Couldn't believe it until I found it online. Why would these people be surprised? You can't ref forever, just like you can't play forever.

AremRed Sat Feb 08, 2020 10:55pm

Lol good luck gentlemen.

Player989random Sat Feb 08, 2020 11:26pm

I might've buried the lead here. The larger takeaway is that they are claiming that the NCAA and conferences were acting as "employers" under New York state law. Link to actual filing:

https://www.courthousenews.com/wp-co...obert-ncaa.pdf

They bring up the camp system, e-mails and quotes from commissioners and JD Collins, and how their schedules died down after the push to hire younger officials. It reads as a couple of disgruntled old guys sore over the fact that they have been kicked to the curb, but if they can put a stop to the corrupt state of the "camp system", I'm all for it. This could have massive ramifications for officiating in the NCAA across all sports.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Sat Feb 08, 2020 11:28pm

I see Ben Drieth being called to the stand for the plaintiffs.

MTD, Sr.

crosscountry55 Sat Feb 08, 2020 11:42pm

Three D1 Refs Suing NCAA & Alliance Affiliated Leagues
 
I just don’t see how they have standing to sue as independent contractors.

Let’s say every year I have me fence painted (I really love my fence). For the past ten years, I hired the same painter. This year, I hired someone else. Same price, but just felt like I wanted to try something new. So what, do I now have to legally justify the whims with which I hire my independent contract painters? Of course not.

This is no different. Frivolous lawsuit.

Edit: After 989’s update post, I see the bigger picture. Looks like they’re going to make their case on similar grounds to the PIAA lacrosse thing a few years back. Who knows, maybe they’ll get somewhere.

There is no doubt that the concept of “independent contractor” is often stretched to its limits with sports officials.

Player989random Sun Feb 09, 2020 12:12am

Quote:

Originally Posted by crosscountry55 (Post 1037454)

Edit: After 989’s update post, I see the bigger picture. Looks like they’re going to make their case on similar grounds to the PIAA lacrosse thing a few years back. Who knows, maybe they’ll get somewhere.

There is no doubt that the concept of “independent contractor” is often stretched to its limits with sports officials.

https://www.nfhs.org/articles/court-...t-contractors/

The PIAA won because while they have oversight of PA athletics, they didn't actually control the refs. The argument of this suit appears to be that the NCAA controls the conferences, and thus indirectly influences the hiring practices of the officials for these conferences.

The other deciding factors for the PIAA were that officials had discretion in apply the rules, contract/bylaw language, and that most officials were part-time.

When this issue arose last time, I believed that if anyone challenged an assignor/NCAA in court, we could see a different result. It's hard to say that we aren't officiating full time when we have a season from November to April (well, some of them), and then have camps/pre-season training from April to September. The NCAA hires a "National Coordinator" of officials, who has to be a salary guy, yet somehow they have a coordinator who coordinates a staff of whom?

We get videos once every other week which tell us how to do our jobs, we get e-mails telling us how to do our jobs, and we have to attend training to be told how to do our jobs, yet somehow we still meet the requirements for independent contractors?

That being said, I'm not a lawyer. I mostly do taxes. But after actually reading this, I wish these guys luck.

Raymond Sun Feb 09, 2020 09:24am

No surprise at all that older officials are getting squeezed out of the Alliance. I predicted that a long time ago when the Alliance started. A lot of us have complained over the years about older officials holding onto schedules as their abilities have diminished. So we can't be mad that's being addressed.

The one thing that has definitely changed is that older officials will never get an opportunity to break into D1 anymore. I started officiating at the age of 37, got hired into D3 at 44, my one mid-major D1 at 45, and D2 at 50. That's not going to happen anymore, at least not in the Mid-Atlantic or Southeast.

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crosscountry55 Sun Feb 09, 2020 09:38am

Three D1 Refs Suing NCAA & Alliance Affiliated Leagues
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1037457)
No surprise at all that older officials are getting squeezed out of the Alliance. I predicted that a long time ago when the Alliance started. A lot of us have complained over the years about older officials holding onto schedules as their abilities have diminished. So we can't be mad that's being addressed.

I noticed one commissioner was prominently highlighted by the plaintiffs. Would seem that that individual did not care about such complaints until the NCAA began to force his hand.

I heard him speak at camps a few times over the years. To be honest I didn’t care for his approach and demeanor regarding advancement. I thought it was a little antiquated. In retrospect, seems like it was a little protectionist, too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1037457)
The one thing that has definitely changed is that older officials will never get an opportunity to break into D1 anymore. I started officiating at the age of 37, got hired into D3 at 44, my one mid-major D1 at 45, and D2 at 50. That's not going to happen anymore, at least not in the Mid-Atlantic or Southeast.


I agree and this is something I have reluctantly come to accept. The geographic instability of my Navy career has always kept me from establishing “camp roots” in any one area. I had hoped to follow in your shoes after I retire in a few years, but that looks doubtful now. On the bright side, I’ll probably save thousands of dollars on camps I’ll choose not to attend now for the dead ends that they are.



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Raymond Sun Feb 09, 2020 09:49am

I don't know how the MEAC supervisor was highlighted prominently in the lawsuit since none of those officials worked in the MEAC. The MEAC actually isn't even included in the lawsuit.

The MEAC has a history of hiring older officials, including guys from New Jersey and New York, were these plaintiffs are from.

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crosscountry55 Sun Feb 09, 2020 10:09am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1037459)
I don't know how the MEAC supervisor was highlighted prominently in the lawsuit since none of those officials worked in the MEAC.


I assume it had to do with it’s affiliation to the consortium, for who’s other conferences the plaintiffs worked for.

But you’re right, this is a tenuous nexus at best, and one I’m sure the defense will exploit. You can’t cite the MEAC’s position if you weren’t “injured” (in a legal sense) by the MEAC.



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SC Official Sun Feb 09, 2020 10:09am

As long as you have assigners acting more as bosses than agents and the garbage camp system cesspool, you can never honestly say with a straight face that we are independent contractors. Assigners and conferences only call their officials “independent contractors” when it’s convenient for them.

That’s not to say I think the plaintiffs will prevail or that I think it’s in college officials’ best interest to be employees, but I’m surprised no one has raised a stink about this before. Seems that since these plaintiffs are on their way down, they have nothing to lose.

JRutledge Sun Feb 09, 2020 02:05pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1037457)
No surprise at all that older officials are getting squeezed out of the Alliance. I predicted that a long time ago when the Alliance started. A lot of us have complained over the years about older officials holding onto schedules as their abilities have diminished. So we can't be mad that's being addressed.

The one thing that has definitely changed is that older officials will never get an opportunity to break into D1 anymore. I started officiating at the age of 37, got hired into D3 at 44, my one mid-major D1 at 45, and D2 at 50. That's not going to happen anymore, at least not in the Mid-Atlantic or Southeast.

That might be specific to that particular Alliance or consortium. I think it is still possible or it is happening in my part of the country. Some of it is based on who assigns all the lower-level conferences. Is it less likely to hire older officials? Yes, it is. But I think there are structures to identify officials for all their levels.

I'm not sure how this lawsuit helps. Because so much of this is subjective.

Peace

Raymond Sun Feb 09, 2020 02:43pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1037465)
That might be specific to that particular Alliance or consortium. I think it is still possible or it is happening in my part of the country. Some of it is based on who assigns all the lower-level conferences. Is it less likely to hire older officials? Yes, it is. But I think there are structures to identify officials for all their levels.



I'm not sure how this lawsuit helps. Because so much of this is subjective.



Peace

It's creeping down in this region of the country. Two of the D3 conferences in the heart of ACC country are part of the Alliance training system now, plus a D2 farther up north. Also there's another D2 conference in the heart of ACC country that is basically, but not officially, tied to the Alliance also.

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JRutledge Sun Feb 09, 2020 03:19pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1037466)
It's creeping down in this region of the country. Two of the D3 conferences in the heart of ACC country are part of the Alliance training system now, plus a D2 farther up north. Also there's another D2 conference in the heart of ACC country that is basically, but not officially, tied to the Alliance also.

I work for the football "Alliance" under the Big Ten. The Big Ten uses in my area 4 Division III Conferences. This has been the case for probably 8 or 9 years now. I mention this because there was no basketball relationship until this year. The Big Ten brought into their "Consortium" two of those Division III on the basketball side. I personally work for two other assignors that are not apart of the consortium from an official relationship, but the assignors are D1 officials that assign multiple lower-level college Men's Conferences between them. So even if you are not in the "Consortium", you are likely being considered or could easily be considered for the Big Ten Consortium because of their very close relationship with the Big Ten already. The Big Ten already had 6 conferences under their umbrella before this year. They might add more in the future. But the reason is to get officials more experience to work games. We were told that if someone is working they have a shot at the other levels. And if you are officially assigned to the D1 side, that you would work to get guys multiple games at that level. The lower levels are also used to give those newly hired D1 officials or not full-time D1 officials the opportunity to work a lot of college ball.

My point is they are using younger guys and older guys to give some opportunities. But like anything, younger is definitely in.

Peace

LRZ Sun Feb 09, 2020 07:42pm

It has been decades since I've done any labor law, but it is important to understand that this law suit is based on age discrimination under the NYC and NYS Human Rights laws, while the PIAA case was a federal NLRB case. Not only might the facts be significantly different, but the tests for "employee/independent contractor" may be different. And, of course, the NY state court is probably a more favorable forum for the officials than the current, GOP-majority NLRB.

A more apt analogy might be Kemether v. PIAA (1999), where a woman sued PIAA in federal court on the basis of sex discrimination, and prevailed under Title IX.

In any event, it is likely that the defendants will seek to move the cases to federal court.

Jeez, it's been 35+ years since I've thought about legal issues like this case raises.

Player989random Sun Feb 09, 2020 09:18pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by LRZ (Post 1037473)
It has been decades since I've done any labor law, but it is important to understand that this law suit is based on age discrimination under the NYC and NYS Human Rights laws, while the PIAA case was a federal NLRB case. Not only might the facts be significantly different, but the tests for "employee/independent contractor" may be different. And, of course, the NY state court is probably a more favorable forum for the officials than the current, GOP-majority NLRB.

A more apt analogy might be Kemether v. PIAA (1999), where a woman sued PIAA in federal court on the basis of sex discrimination, and prevailed under Title IX.

In any event, it is likely that the defendants will seek to move the cases to federal court.

Jeez, it's been 35+ years since I've thought about legal issues like this case raises.

Do you believe they have a valid case?

ilyazhito Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:44am

They might, unless the conference assigners provide evidence that their decrease in assignments is related to performance issues that are affected by age (call selection becomes worse because the officials are out of position more often. They are out of position more often because they can't run as fast as they used to, and this loss in speed is due to age). For that, the conference assigners would have to provide evaluation reports, play-calling percentages, game film, etc.

LRZ Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:54pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Player989random (Post 1037475)
Do you believe they have a valid case?

A lot depends on the competing "facts" offered by the plaintiffs and defendants. In the pleadings, we see what the plaintiffs allege; the defendants will, of course, offer a contrasting version of the facts, so the central question is whether the reduced schedules resulted from declining abilities or from age discrimination? This is for the jury to determine.

And that issue would only come into play after a threshold determination of the employer/employee/independent contractor question--that is, do the two statutes even apply to the cases at bar? This is a legal issue, for the trial judge to determine.

But the lawsuit is certainly not frivolous, and has merit.

One further point: the law is always trying to catch up with societal and technological changes. The status of officials in amateur sports presents just such a situation, where the law doesn't really fit; in my view, we are a hybrid, somewhere between employee and independent contractor.

Raymond Mon Feb 10, 2020 01:12pm

My far-flung hope is that some court case or legal action will blow up the current college camp paradigm.

LRZ Mon Feb 10, 2020 01:21pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1037481)
My far-flung hope is that some court case or legal action will blow up the current college camp paradigm.

That paradigm has reached down to the HS level, at least in the Philadelphia region. I'm glad I don't need to worry about it: with perhaps one more season in my tired, old body before I retire, I'm now quite satisfied with sub-varsity games at the jv and middle school levels.

I should say that assigning has gotten better over the last several years. I've posted before about a vindictive, all-powerful assigner, and since he died, things have gotten fairer.

ilyazhito Mon Feb 10, 2020 01:28pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1037481)
My far-flung hope is that some court case or legal action will blow up the current college camp paradigm.

Interesting. How would that happen, and what should the replacement system look like?

It'll be a long and drawn-out legal battle for sure.

SC Official Mon Feb 10, 2020 01:45pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1037484)
Interesting. How would that happen, and what should the replacement system look like?

Not price-gouging officials to give them camp speak and lip service they've already heard 200 times when you're already getting paid well by the conference.

That's what a replacement system would look like.

JRutledge Mon Feb 10, 2020 01:48pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1037481)
My far-flung hope is that some court case or legal action will blow up the current college camp paradigm.

I would not be upset. But not sure much is going to change unless the NCAA completely takes over. And I heard some interesting things about those camps they had all over the country.

Peace

Player989random Mon Feb 10, 2020 02:39pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1037486)
I would not be upset. But not sure much is going to change unless the NCAA completely takes over. And I heard some interesting things about those camps they had all over the country.

Peace

Would you care to share? When those camps were first mentioned a few years ago, I was curious what would make them any different from your standard D1 camp.

And I agree with Raymond: If this can destroy the camp system, I'm all for it. But if this gets any traction I'm sure the NCAA will settle. Imagine how many full-time hires they'd have to make for every sport.

crosscountry55 Mon Feb 10, 2020 02:55pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Player989random (Post 1037488)
But if this gets any traction I'm sure the NCAA will settle. Imagine how many full-time hires they'd have to make for every sport.


They might very well do so as the dollar amount in the grand scheme of things is very small. Conversely, this would open the door to other ostracized officials filing similar lawsuits, perhaps even a small class action suit.

So either the NCAA would have to come up with objective analysis now (doubtful they have it), or it may have to eat a small class action suit valued at a couple million bucks while becoming more analytical in their assignment rationales going forward.



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bob jenkins Mon Feb 10, 2020 03:00pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Player989random (Post 1037488)
Imagine how many full-time hires they'd have to make for every sport.

Why would the employees have to be full time? Maybe I'm not understanding your point.

crosscountry55 Mon Feb 10, 2020 03:10pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by LRZ (Post 1037483)
I should say that assigning has gotten better over the last several years. I've posted before about a vindictive, all-powerful assigner, and since he died, things have gotten fairer.


A little off topic, but doesn’t this “hanging on until you croke” thing just epitomize one of the big problems with our avocation?

We have to get younger, folks! Wait, I’m being told....really?....ok, never mind. We might get sued if we try to modernize.



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Raymond Mon Feb 10, 2020 03:26pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1037484)
Interesting. How would that happen, and what should the replacement system look like?

It'll be a long and drawn-out legal battle for sure.

The system I came up in is that you pay $300-$600/camp so that you may be one of 5-10 out of 60-80 campers to get hired. Sometimes that includes some meals and sleeping accommodations in school dorms, otherwise you also have to come out of pocket for hotel rooms. An overwhelming amount of the time, the instruction you get is not worth $$$ spent if you do not get hired. The camp coordinator (often a college supervisor) also gets paid by the tournament director to provide officials. That money goes into the pockets of supervisor after taking care of hotel/meals for observers and guest speakers. Of course some camps are better than others. And some camps cover all your sleeping accommodations and meals for your camp cost. You have some that charge upwards of $600 and provide zero meal and zero sleeping quarters.

You also have supervisors who will not hire somebody, no matter how good there are, the first time they come to camp.

Every NBA official I've talk to about or heard speak on the subject feels campers should pay no more than a nominal fee to cover certain expenses, if that. They feel the supervisor gets hired by the conference(s) to bring in talent and the cost of the camps should be borne by the supervisor and/or conference(s). Currently, we are basically paying someone to give us a try-out and to cover games they are already getting paid for.

That's before you get hired. After you get hired there are some conferences where you have to pay to go to staff camp annually or you get dropped.

Then you also have conferences where you are required to attend a pre-season clinic ($100-$150) plus hotel, and travel to get there. And if you are a D1 official you also have to pay $200/yearly to Arbiter so you can receive J.D. Collins' emails and videos.

Don't get me started, I could write a book on the subject.

JRutledge Mon Feb 10, 2020 03:50pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Player989random (Post 1037488)
Would you care to share? When those camps were first mentioned a few years ago, I was curious what would make them any different from your standard D1 camp.

I was told that many of the camps did not have very good competition or were not a very good competition to show people's true abilities. They were working sometimes not even high school varsity level players and certainly not any college-level players. But again this was the first year of it, so maybe that will be worked out if they move forward.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Player989random (Post 1037488)
And I agree with Raymond: If this can destroy the camp system, I'm all for it. But if this gets any traction I'm sure the NCAA will settle. Imagine how many full-time hires they'd have to make for every sport.

I do not think necessarily full-time officials solve this issue. I am just saying that the camp system I think undermines a true evaluation as some camps are not run to hire people, they are used to make money for the supervisor. I think it would be better if the big conferences got involved and spent money to invite people that could seriously work their level. But that would be a longer view of the role of your staff and that is not in the financial incentive for most conferences even though they make millions and billions of dollars in sports like football and basketball.

Peace

Rich Mon Feb 10, 2020 04:36pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by crosscountry55 (Post 1037491)
A little off topic, but doesn’t this “hanging on until you croke” thing just epitomize one of the big problems with our avocation?

We have to get younger, folks! Wait, I’m being told....really?....ok, never mind. We might get sued if we try to modernize.



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If there are evaluations that say that the older officials are not doing the job as well as they need to to be on staff, fine, but deciding someone is "just too old" is just a bunch of crap.

Rich Mon Feb 10, 2020 04:38pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1037481)
My far-flung hope is that some court case or legal action will blow up the current college camp paradigm.

Amen.

I remember 20 or so years ago I went to some of the D3 camps and thankfully I got that out of my system after a year or two. No feedback, no teaching....and this is for the privilege of working in a near-empty gym for about $160.....after driving 3-4 hours. No, thanks.

bucky Mon Feb 10, 2020 06:23pm

When it comes to camps, one word comes to mind, "scam".

Player989random Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:06pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1037490)
Why would the employees have to be full time? Maybe I'm not understanding your point.

Honestly, it's hard to imagine the reffing landscape where we aren't independent contractors.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1037493)

I do not think necessarily full-time officials solve this issue. I am just saying that the camp system I think undermines a true evaluation as some camps are not run to hire people, they are used to make money for the supervisor. I think it would be better if the big conferences got involved and spent money to invite people that could seriously work their level. But that would be a longer view of the role of your staff and that is not in the financial incentive for most conferences even though they make millions and billions of dollars in sports like football and basketball.

Oh I feel you there. I did a camp with Jr NBA for a D2 tryout, and that was some of the worst basketball I've ever officiated. Games were cancelled left and right. It was awful. But I've no doubt that the supervisor cashed out on it.

sdoebler Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:36am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 1037497)
Amen.

I remember 20 or so years ago I went to some of the D3 camps and thankfully I got that out of my system after a year or two. No feedback, no teaching....and this is for the privilege of working in a near-empty gym for about $160.....after driving 3-4 hours. No, thanks.

20 years ago you got $160? I got $175 doing it for a year last year and said, what am I doing? That was the end of that.

Rich Wed Feb 12, 2020 02:05pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by sdoebler (Post 1037532)
20 years ago you got $160? I got $175 doing it for a year last year and said, what am I doing? That was the end of that.



I think I may have adjusted a bit for the times. Maybe $140-ish then?


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BillyMac Wed Feb 12, 2020 02:11pm

Baby It's Cold Outside (Dean Martin) ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 1037497)
… working in a near-empty gym for about $160 … after driving 3-4 hours.

… in winter weather.

Exactly why I decided not to step up and do college about 35 years ago.

Plus, back then, there were few high school games on Saturdays (never on Sundays here in Connecticut) and weekends (with the exception of some local Saturday morning recreation games) were family time for me after working high school and recreation games almost every weeknight.

JRutledge Wed Feb 12, 2020 03:17pm

Gyms are just as full for a lower level college game as I see in most of my high school games. Last night was a perfect example. I had a D3 game last week that had more fans watching the game.

It is all about where you are. But I would rather make $175-$200 for the same basic amount of time. And you see better ball. But to each his own.

Peace

Camron Rust Wed Feb 12, 2020 07:05pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1037540)
Gyms are just as full for a lower level college game as I see in most of my high school games. Last night was a perfect example. I had a D3 game last week that had more fans watching the game.

It is all about where you are. But I would rather make $175-$200 for the same basic amount of time. And you see better ball. But to each his own.

Peace

The D3/NAIA games I had for the time that I was doing college just didn't have that many people. A decent Friday night HS game almost always had more.

You're in an area fortunate enough to have several college options in close proximity. That is not the case in a lot of places. A lot of college officials here are driving 3-5 hours (one way) to games on a regular basis. There are certainly local games, but there are only a handful as close as all the HS games.

crosscountry55 Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:15pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 1037549)
The D3/NAIA games I had for the time that I was doing college just didn't have that many people. A decent Friday night HS game almost always had more.



You're in an area fortunate enough to have several college options in close proximity. That is not the case in a lot of places. A lot of college officials here are driving 3-5 hours (one way) to games on a regular basis. There are certainly local games, but there are only a handful as close as all the HS games.



Partner and I talking before tonight’s game. He recalled one day years ago when he had four youth games and then a varsity game on a Saturday. Total fees were $200.

Then Mr. College Assignor calls. “Need you tonight for a men’s game at 8pm.” Gave all his local games back to the disdain of the local assignors. Four hours away plus had to pick up partners along the way. Oh, and had to be there two hours early for college. So he left a little after noon, and got back at 2am. Fee = $175.

His local assignments suffered from lack of dependability thereafter. Next time Mr. College Assignor called with a last minute assignment, he said “no.”

That was the last year he worked college. He doesn’t regret it one bit.


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Raymond Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:48pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by crosscountry55 (Post 1037554)
...
His local assignments suffered from lack of dependability thereafter. Next time Mr. College Assignor called with a last minute assignment, he said “no.”

That was the last year he worked college. He doesn’t regret it one bit.


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Yeah, that will get you dropped. If you are a college ref and want to stay a college ref, then there are certain expectations. Saying no because of rec or HS games is not one of them.





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AremRed Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:08pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by crosscountry55 (Post 1037554)
Partner and I talking before tonight’s game. He recalled one day years ago when he had four youth games and then a varsity game on a Saturday. Total fees were $200.

Then Mr. College Assignor calls. “Need you tonight for a men’s game at 8pm.” Gave all his local games back to the disdain of the local assignors. Four hours away plus had to pick up partners along the way. Oh, and had to be there two hours early for college. So he left a little after noon, and got back at 2am. Fee = $175.

His local assignments suffered from lack of dependability thereafter. Next time Mr. College Assignor called with a last minute assignment, he said “no.”

That was the last year he worked college. He doesn’t regret it one bit.

If you are working for someone who won't let you say no to a day-of assignment, you are working for a bad assignor.

ilyazhito Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:18pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by crosscountry55 (Post 1037554)
Partner and I talking before tonight’s game. He recalled one day years ago when he had four youth games and then a varsity game on a Saturday. Total fees were $200.

Then Mr. College Assignor calls. “Need you tonight for a men’s game at 8pm.” Gave all his local games back to the disdain of the local assignors. Four hours away plus had to pick up partners along the way. Oh, and had to be there two hours early for college. So he left a little after noon, and got back at 2am. Fee = $175.

His local assignments suffered from lack of dependability thereafter. Next time Mr. College Assignor called with a last minute assignment, he said “no.”

That was the last year he worked college. He doesn’t regret it one bit.


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Aren't you supposed to be there 90 minutes before tip-off for a college game? Maybe the rules were different back then.

It would be interesting to see if the lawsuit makes college evaluators and observers be more transparent with their records. Dumping old officials in favor of young officials might seem suspicious, especially with good evaluation reports (according to the officials), unless there is good evidence in the reports that the old officials can't cut it anymore.

ilyazhito Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:20pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1037558)
Yeah, that will get you dropped. If you are a college ref and want to stay a college ref, then that are certain expectations. Saying no because of rec or HS games is not one of them.





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Is that because college assigners have a similar mindset when it comes to D1 assigners taking officials from lower-level assigners on the day of?

JRutledge Thu Feb 13, 2020 12:02am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 1037549)
The D3/NAIA games I had for the time that I was doing college just didn't have that many people. A decent Friday night HS game almost always had more.

You're in an area fortunate enough to have several college options in close proximity. That is not the case in a lot of places. A lot of college officials here are driving 3-5 hours (one way) to games on a regular basis. There are certainly local games, but there are only a handful as close as all the HS games.

All my games are not close. I have a 3-hour trip tomorrow as an example. I am going 2 states away. But again that does not bother me, I will make way more than I will work any high school game (and more than the range I gave earlier). Local high school games have bigger headaches and in many cases no bigger crowds.

Again it is what you value. I have been working high school games for a long time and had some fun, but I like to be challenged and working a ton of high school games all the time is not as challenging. The crowds used to be a draw, but not anymore.

Peace

JRutledge Thu Feb 13, 2020 12:08am

Quote:

Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 1037559)
If you are working for someone who won't let you say no to a day-of assignment, you are working for a bad assignor.

Well, kind of. I know we should tell the truth, but it is not like you have to tell the truth all the time when asked or keep your calendar up so this becomes less of an issue. If he wanted to work the youth games, just block them off at least if you have an online system that is being used. Your availability is not everyone's business anyway. All they need to know is you can work or not.

Peace

Camron Rust Thu Feb 13, 2020 02:04am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1037558)
Yeah, that will get you dropped. If you are a college ref and want to stay a college ref, then that are certain expectations. Saying no because of rec or HS games is not one of them.





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I agree. Here, the expectation is that you can take a college game, even same day. The HS assignor accepts those without holding it against you....college always wins. If you don't want to give up a HS game for a college game, you block the date.

Camron Rust Thu Feb 13, 2020 02:05am

Quote:

Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 1037559)
If you are working for someone who won't let you say no to a day-of assignment, you are working for a bad assignor.

I disagree.

I your calendar says available, you are available. If you don't want a game, block your calendar. Save the assignor 30 phone call trying to find someone who's calendar is accurate.

BillyMac Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:20am

No ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by crosscountry55 (Post 1037554)
Next time Mr. College Assignor called with a last minute assignment, he said “no.” That was the last year he worked college.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 1037567)
If your calendar says available, you are available. If you don't want a game, block your calendar.

Another reason why I never stepped up. I was told that with as little as one "No" you would pretty much put yourself on the bottom of the list.

Of course, back then there was no Arbiter, no email, no cell phones; just snail mail, land line phone calls, and answering "machines".

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.0...=0&w=206&h=169

Rich Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:54am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 1037567)
I disagree.



I your calendar says available, you are available. If you don't want a game, block your calendar. Save the assignor 30 phone call trying to find someone who's calendar is accurate.



The problem with Arbiter is that having a game in one group doesn’t always affect how you’re seen in another group.

I worked college baseball for over a decade. My main reason for quitting is that my assigner used to call and try to convince me to “dump my HS game” for him. Even though I blocked the date on my Arbiter.

Also, he thought it was normal to be able to umpire 18 innings starting at noon on a weekday on a moments notice. He rewarded those who could with postseason recommendations. He used the rest of us to fill his schedules.

No thanks, bye bye.


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JRutledge Thu Feb 13, 2020 12:31pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 1037576)
The problem with Arbiter is that having a game in one group doesn’t always affect how you’re seen in another group.

Can't you just have the date blocked regardless of the level? I know when I share Arbiter blocks, I do not share the site or the level with another group.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 1037576)
I worked college baseball for over a decade. My main reason for quitting is that my assigner used to call and try to convince me to “dump my HS game” for him. Even though I blocked the date on my Arbiter.



Also, he thought it was normal to be able to umpire 18 innings starting at noon on a weekday on a moments notice. He rewarded those who could with postseason recommendations. He used the rest of us to fill his schedules.

No thanks, bye bye.

It is baseball, chances are you are also working a lot earlier than that high school game. One of the reasons I got out was the ego of assignors that felt your time was their time in a sport that did not make money. They needed to get over themselves. (Off my soap box).

College basketball conferences have gotten away from using Arbiter, so this is not the same issue. You literally can block a date for any reason and know one really knows unless you actually tell them why there is a block. BlueZebra is used more by college assignors anymore. It is a better site and easier to block things. So if you want to work your little 4th grade games you can do so an no one is going to know unless you tell them you are working 4th grade games.

Peace

Rich Thu Feb 13, 2020 01:32pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1037578)
Can't you just have the date blocked regardless of the level? I know when I share Arbiter blocks, I do not share the site or the level with another group.







It is baseball, chances are you are also working a lot earlier than that high school game. One of the reasons I got out was the ego of assignors that felt your time was their time in a sport that did not make money. They needed to get over themselves. (Off my soap box).



College basketball conferences have gotten away from using Arbiter, so this is not the same issue. You literally can block a date for any reason and know one really knows unless you actually tell them why there is a block. BlueZebra is used more by college assignors anymore. It is a better site and easier to block things. So if you want to work your little 4th grade games you can do so an no one is going to know unless you tell them you are working 4th grade games.



Peace



So, I am off the floor. 30+ years and three sports have left me likely in need of a new knee or 2. I can work FB and on the diamond, but the twisting of my knee on a court I can't take day after day. I am also assigning a lot and evaluating.

(Note: I've kept my streak going by covering a late flu scratch this week. Varsity boys. I got through it.)

What I've learned: I was insane working 60+ HS games a season. Nights at home with family are wonderful. The games go on. I wish I could go back and cut my schedule in half.

Some people may want to take it easy, stay close to home, and not drive 3-4 hours to work that night.

No need to insult the 4th graders by calling it a "little 4th grade game."


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Raymond Thu Feb 13, 2020 01:54pm

I don't think I've ever worked more than 35 HS games in a season. I started off my officiating career with strict 50/50 shared custody of 9 and 3 year-old boys, so I've never been a game ho. If I had to choose between working 1-2 D3 games/week vs. 3-5 HS games a week, college wins out easy. I no longer need the $$$ from officiating to help balance my income, so I've been doing it strictly for achievement for quite a while now.

I simply enjoy the college game so much more. It's not only the quality of play and coaching, it's also working with much better officials at the college level. I don't work little kids games b/c I am totally disinterested in those games. I don't want to leave my house for games I don't want to work.

Whenever I work off-season, AAU and AAU-type basketball, I work no more than 3 games in a day, usually just once for the entire weekend. Other officials question me as if I'm acting like I'm special. I'm not special, I just choose my work load. I have no obligation to work a whole bunch of rec and AAU-style ball. Emails about shortages do not sway me either. I work off-season either b/c there is a high-level tournament going on or I'm preparing for a camp.

I say all that to say, we all make choices in how we provide our services. I choose to subject myself to the inequities of the college game b/c that's the level I want to work, while I limit my availability and workload for other levels b/c that's also what I choose to do.

To each his own; nobody is right or wrong for how they choose to pursue this avocation.

JRutledge Fri Feb 14, 2020 08:52am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 1037580)
What I've learned: I was insane working 60+ HS games a season. Nights at home with family are wonderful. The games go on. I wish I could go back and cut my schedule in half.

Some people may want to take it easy, stay close to home, and not drive 3-4 hours to work that night.

No need to insult the 4th graders by calling it a "little 4th grade game."

My first mentor told me this a long time ago.
Quote:

"When you leave your home and dread what you are about to do, it is time to change something."
I took his advice over 20 years ago and still apply that to my career today.

I would leave my home dreading covering middle school games even if they are 10 minutes from my house, which usually is more than one game a night, on a horrible floor or subpar gym to work games. If I am going to be away from my family I would rather see as many 3 digit numbers as possible for a similar time on the floor. I do not mind driving 3 or 4 hours if I love the experience of what I am doing. I am not doing this all year long. I gave up baseball for a similar reason. I simply did not love the experiences at any level. And I was fortunate to work all levels of amateur baseball at one time. I also know you officiated college football too. Those were much longer days even if the game was 40 minutes away because of what crew chiefs wanted than any basketball game I work for the most part. Having to be on the field a literal hour before the game starts and being at the school sometimes an hour before you get on the field. And those games are on a Saturday where I really could be spending time with my wife and kid. If I can do that like I did this fall, I can work a game 30 minutes from my house (which some games are that close) and be there a little over an hour and after the game I can leave. Heck during football weekends we have to do other stuff and take our time to get out of the locker room with 6 or 7 other people there.

If I am going to work a game, I am going to at least work something I enjoy and not deal with some parent that is a coach and never played the game a day in their life. I would rather get yelled at where there is actual accountability by all participants and a larger organization can oversee the behavior of everyone. That does not take place with middle school games. Anything below high school is a waste of my time and that is my choice. So if that insults people to say, "Little 4th Grade Middle school game" then so be it. For one those that work those games often seem to get value out of those games, but that is them. Those games would make me pull my hair out and I have a lot of hair.

So even though working a few hours from my home can be sometimes a chore (like I did last night going to another state), at least I enjoy the experience for the most part. And yes you still get yelled at, but you are dealing with a more reasonable environment. Working a middle school game can be a cluster with no personal value to working those games for me. I do not apologize for my stance. Which is why I only work boys games and men's college during the season. I worked hard to make that choice and not turning back now.

Peace

LRZ Fri Feb 14, 2020 09:23am

Experiences about accountability and reasonable environments vary widely, obviously, and let's not conflate school and travel/rec ball. My experience is that HS and MS coaches are held accountable, but travel/rec, not so much.

I'd rather do a competitive 4th grade game (yes, there is such a thing) or MS game than a 60-point HS blow-out, especially when I feel like I'm contributing to the kids' game in ways that the typical overweight, over-the-hill or indifferent official can't or won't.

And, fortunately for me, with lots of HSs and MSs in the Philadelphia suburbs, I set a 20-mile limit on Arbiter and I still work as much as I care to.

That's my experience, and I won't generalize beyond that.

BillyMac Fri Feb 14, 2020 09:29am

Quality Over Quantity ...
 
I don't officiate basketball for the money, but I wouldn't do it for free, and I wouldn't do it if it weren't fun, and challenging.

I gave up recreation/travel/AAU games a long time ago (no longer needed the money). Gave up Catholic middle school games a few years ago. Now I only work games assigned by my local board, which includes middle school games.

JRutledge Fri Feb 14, 2020 09:56am

Quote:

Originally Posted by LRZ (Post 1037594)
Experiences about accountability and reasonable environments vary widely, obviously, and let's not conflate school and travel/rec ball. My experience is that HS and MS coaches are held accountable, but travel/rec, not so much.

That is true, but I am not working in everyone's area. For one all high school games are under the jurisdiction from the IHSA or even the IHSAA where I live. So that means that if I give as much of a technical foul, someone might have to answer. And certainly, if I eject someone from a game there really is accountability as there is a report to be filed with the home offices. There is no such thing at any middle school game I would work. There is an IESA but that does not apply to all games in the state. So that is what I mean about accountability. If I work a middle school game there is almost never a larger organization or standard of behavior. The assignor might be the only line of defense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LRZ (Post 1037594)
I'd rather do a competitive 4th grade game (yes, there is such a thing) or MS game than a 60-point HS blow-out, especially when I feel like I'm contributing to the kids' game in ways that the typical overweight, over-the-hill or indifferent official can't or won't.

I would agree with that, but that never happens here. We have a 30 point mercy rule that applies in the 4th Quarter and it is rare that even happens. Again like I said I work only boys games, hardly ever had a game where the score is that out of hand. But I will say, have a greater chance of working with officials you describe at the lower levels. I rarely work a single high school game with someone that cannot work.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LRZ (Post 1037594)
And, fortunately for me, with lots of HSs and MSs in the Philadelphia suburbs, I set a 20-mile limit on Arbiter and I still work as much as I care to.

That's my experience, and I won't generalize beyond that.

I work in the Chicagoland area and Northwest Indiana. Schools are all over the place. I will never work a middle school game unless I am being helpful and someone needs a last-second replacement. But I work enough and would rather make real money that being a ho and getting excited that I made 75 dollars working two games. I have no tolerance for this. But this is my overall point, I do not have to. That is ultimately the reality in this situation.

Peace

BillyMac Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:42am

Not The Wild Wild West ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1037597)
There is no such thing at any middle school game I would work ... about accountability. If I work a middle school game there is almost never a larger organization or standard of behavior.

That's unfortunate. Here in my little corner of Connecticut, while middle school unsporting activity reports may not reach the state level, things do move a little up the chain.

All middle school unsporting technical fouls (and anything unsporting, i.e., fans) are reported to our assignment commissioner. He then reports the unsporting activity to the athletic director (of the high school, or school district). Public middle school coaches are usually supervised by the athletic director of the high school, or the athletic director of the entire school district.

Not the accountability of high schools, but there is some accountability. Supervising athletic directors do not want unsporting activity in their middle school athletic events, and all public school coaches here in Connecticut are on one year contracts.

At least it's not the Wild Wild West.

http://addbcdbimages.s3.amazonaws.co...ld_west.jpg?u=

R.I.P. Robert Conrad.

ilyazhito Sat Feb 15, 2020 09:43pm

How did we get from a lawsuit involving old college officials trying to hang on to talk about middle school games and the accountability involved or lack thereof?

Grab your popcorn, strap in, and hold on tight, 'cause something big is about to happen.

JRutledge Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:20pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1037600)
That's unfortunate. Here in my little corner of Connecticut, while middle school unsporting activity reports may not reach the state level, things do move a little up the chain.

All middle school unsporting technical fouls (and anything unsporting, i.e., fans) are reported to our assignment commissioner. He then reports the unsporting activity to the athletic director (of the high school, or school district). Public middle school coaches are usually supervised by the athletic director of the high school, or the athletic director of the entire school district.

Not the accountability of high schools, but there is some accountability. Supervising athletic directors do not want unsporting activity in their middle school athletic events, and all public school coaches here in Connecticut are on one year contracts.

You are missing the point. This is not about reporting something to the AD or assignment chairperson. This is about having an overseeing organization like any state organization that if something happens, there is a formal reporting mechanism that could result in punishment or control eligibility. Many middle school games have no such larger organization. Actually Illinois to my understanding has the largest middle school organization called the Illinois Elementary Athletic Association. And the IESA is not a statewide organization. It is only part of the state (a large part). For example where I live there are not many IESA schools that participate in any such statewide tournaments. So if a coach or player is ejected or there is a fan that does something inappropriate, you cannot go to an organization other than maybe the administration or conference and they may or may not take action. If that happens with an IESA sporting event, they can suspend or penalize the school according to their by-laws. That is not the case if I work some local league, which has cause some real problems and why some officials do not work those games, there is a lack of accountability other than what the school decides they are going to do.

Peace

BillyMac Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:33pm

Accountability Outside The School Venue ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1037646)
You are missing the point. There is a lack of accountability other than what the school decides they are going to do.

I'm not missing the point, I'm saying that Connecticut may be doing it a little better than some other states.

Public middle school athletic events (and coaches) are supervised by the athletic director of the high school, or the athletic director of the entire school district (system) in multiple high school cities, so there is some accountability above the middle school level.

Supervising athletic directors, which are not located in the offending school, but are at the high school, or the school district (system) office, do not want unsporting activity in their middle school athletic events (public school coaches, including middle school coaches, here in Connecticut are on yearly evaluations and one year contracts).

Our assignment commissioner is simply a middleman in this process, with no penalty authority, gathering unsporting information (including all unsporting technical fouls, even "garden variety" unsporting technical fouls) from the officials and sending it to the athletic director at the high school, or the athletic director of the entire school (system) district.

In the case of "ejections" (players or coaches), or other really serious middle school unsporting problems, our assignment commissioner is also required to send the unsporting information to our state interscholastic sports governing body, and that organization will issue penalties, including game suspensions of middle school coaches.

In other words there is always accountability outside of the school venue, in the case of "garden variety" technical fouls, usually one step higher than the school principal (i.e., the athletic director), and in the case of serious problems ("ejections"), all the way up to our state interscholastic sports governing body.

JRutledge is correct in that accountability almost never goes to the state level unless it's of a serious nature. Every once in a while we hear about a middle school coach getting a one game suspension (happened to the coach of the school where I used to teach) for an ejection, but that's an extremely rare occurrence.

Unlike Las Vegas, unsporting activity in the middle school gym doesn't stay in the middle school gym, or even stay in the middle school; at the minimum it gets "bumped up" one level (athletic director outside of the school venue); at the maximum, it gets "bumped up" to the state level.

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.e...=0&w=225&h=170

Unsporting activity at private middle schools (and private prep high schools) serviced by our local board, and many Catholic middle schools not serviced by our local board (but by some of our local board members "moonlighting"), may not have any higher level of accountability.

Recreation leagues? Travel leagues? AAU?

It's the Wild Wild West in Connecticut.

BillyMac Sun Feb 16, 2020 04:41pm

Snowball Effect ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1037638)
How did we get from a lawsuit involving old college officials trying to hang on to talk about middle school games and the accountability involved or lack thereof?

Best I can figure, it started here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1037578)
... work your little 4th grade games ...

And then the snowball got bigger:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 1037580)
No need to insult the 4th graders by calling it a "little 4th grade game."

And bigger:

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1037592)
Working a middle school game can be a cluster ...

It got really big:

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1037597)
... accountability ... no such thing at any middle school game I would work ... never a larger organization or standard of behavior.

And this didn't help matters:

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1037595)
I only work games assigned by my local board, which includes middle school games.

And, bam, here we are.

https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.N...=0&w=305&h=165


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