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Three D1 Refs Suing NCAA & Alliance Affiliated Leagues
https://www.courthousenews.com/older...them-from-d-1/
I heard about this while I was at a game the other day. Couldn't believe it until I found it online. Why would these people be surprised? You can't ref forever, just like you can't play forever. |
Lol good luck gentlemen.
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I might've buried the lead here. The larger takeaway is that they are claiming that the NCAA and conferences were acting as "employers" under New York state law. Link to actual filing:
https://www.courthousenews.com/wp-co...obert-ncaa.pdf They bring up the camp system, e-mails and quotes from commissioners and JD Collins, and how their schedules died down after the push to hire younger officials. It reads as a couple of disgruntled old guys sore over the fact that they have been kicked to the curb, but if they can put a stop to the corrupt state of the "camp system", I'm all for it. This could have massive ramifications for officiating in the NCAA across all sports. |
I see Ben Drieth being called to the stand for the plaintiffs.
MTD, Sr. |
Three D1 Refs Suing NCAA & Alliance Affiliated Leagues
I just don’t see how they have standing to sue as independent contractors.
Let’s say every year I have me fence painted (I really love my fence). For the past ten years, I hired the same painter. This year, I hired someone else. Same price, but just felt like I wanted to try something new. So what, do I now have to legally justify the whims with which I hire my independent contract painters? Of course not. This is no different. Frivolous lawsuit. Edit: After 989’s update post, I see the bigger picture. Looks like they’re going to make their case on similar grounds to the PIAA lacrosse thing a few years back. Who knows, maybe they’ll get somewhere. There is no doubt that the concept of “independent contractor” is often stretched to its limits with sports officials. |
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The PIAA won because while they have oversight of PA athletics, they didn't actually control the refs. The argument of this suit appears to be that the NCAA controls the conferences, and thus indirectly influences the hiring practices of the officials for these conferences. The other deciding factors for the PIAA were that officials had discretion in apply the rules, contract/bylaw language, and that most officials were part-time. When this issue arose last time, I believed that if anyone challenged an assignor/NCAA in court, we could see a different result. It's hard to say that we aren't officiating full time when we have a season from November to April (well, some of them), and then have camps/pre-season training from April to September. The NCAA hires a "National Coordinator" of officials, who has to be a salary guy, yet somehow they have a coordinator who coordinates a staff of whom? We get videos once every other week which tell us how to do our jobs, we get e-mails telling us how to do our jobs, and we have to attend training to be told how to do our jobs, yet somehow we still meet the requirements for independent contractors? That being said, I'm not a lawyer. I mostly do taxes. But after actually reading this, I wish these guys luck. |
No surprise at all that older officials are getting squeezed out of the Alliance. I predicted that a long time ago when the Alliance started. A lot of us have complained over the years about older officials holding onto schedules as their abilities have diminished. So we can't be mad that's being addressed.
The one thing that has definitely changed is that older officials will never get an opportunity to break into D1 anymore. I started officiating at the age of 37, got hired into D3 at 44, my one mid-major D1 at 45, and D2 at 50. That's not going to happen anymore, at least not in the Mid-Atlantic or Southeast. Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk |
Three D1 Refs Suing NCAA & Alliance Affiliated Leagues
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I heard him speak at camps a few times over the years. To be honest I didn’t care for his approach and demeanor regarding advancement. I thought it was a little antiquated. In retrospect, seems like it was a little protectionist, too. Quote:
I agree and this is something I have reluctantly come to accept. The geographic instability of my Navy career has always kept me from establishing “camp roots” in any one area. I had hoped to follow in your shoes after I retire in a few years, but that looks doubtful now. On the bright side, I’ll probably save thousands of dollars on camps I’ll choose not to attend now for the dead ends that they are. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
I don't know how the MEAC supervisor was highlighted prominently in the lawsuit since none of those officials worked in the MEAC. The MEAC actually isn't even included in the lawsuit.
The MEAC has a history of hiring older officials, including guys from New Jersey and New York, were these plaintiffs are from. Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk |
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I assume it had to do with it’s affiliation to the consortium, for who’s other conferences the plaintiffs worked for. But you’re right, this is a tenuous nexus at best, and one I’m sure the defense will exploit. You can’t cite the MEAC’s position if you weren’t “injured” (in a legal sense) by the MEAC. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
As long as you have assigners acting more as bosses than agents and the garbage camp system cesspool, you can never honestly say with a straight face that we are independent contractors. Assigners and conferences only call their officials “independent contractors” when it’s convenient for them.
That’s not to say I think the plaintiffs will prevail or that I think it’s in college officials’ best interest to be employees, but I’m surprised no one has raised a stink about this before. Seems that since these plaintiffs are on their way down, they have nothing to lose. |
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I'm not sure how this lawsuit helps. Because so much of this is subjective. Peace |
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My point is they are using younger guys and older guys to give some opportunities. But like anything, younger is definitely in. Peace |
It has been decades since I've done any labor law, but it is important to understand that this law suit is based on age discrimination under the NYC and NYS Human Rights laws, while the PIAA case was a federal NLRB case. Not only might the facts be significantly different, but the tests for "employee/independent contractor" may be different. And, of course, the NY state court is probably a more favorable forum for the officials than the current, GOP-majority NLRB.
A more apt analogy might be Kemether v. PIAA (1999), where a woman sued PIAA in federal court on the basis of sex discrimination, and prevailed under Title IX. In any event, it is likely that the defendants will seek to move the cases to federal court. Jeez, it's been 35+ years since I've thought about legal issues like this case raises. |
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They might, unless the conference assigners provide evidence that their decrease in assignments is related to performance issues that are affected by age (call selection becomes worse because the officials are out of position more often. They are out of position more often because they can't run as fast as they used to, and this loss in speed is due to age). For that, the conference assigners would have to provide evaluation reports, play-calling percentages, game film, etc.
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And that issue would only come into play after a threshold determination of the employer/employee/independent contractor question--that is, do the two statutes even apply to the cases at bar? This is a legal issue, for the trial judge to determine. But the lawsuit is certainly not frivolous, and has merit. One further point: the law is always trying to catch up with societal and technological changes. The status of officials in amateur sports presents just such a situation, where the law doesn't really fit; in my view, we are a hybrid, somewhere between employee and independent contractor. |
My far-flung hope is that some court case or legal action will blow up the current college camp paradigm.
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I should say that assigning has gotten better over the last several years. I've posted before about a vindictive, all-powerful assigner, and since he died, things have gotten fairer. |
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It'll be a long and drawn-out legal battle for sure. |
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That's what a replacement system would look like. |
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Peace |
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And I agree with Raymond: If this can destroy the camp system, I'm all for it. But if this gets any traction I'm sure the NCAA will settle. Imagine how many full-time hires they'd have to make for every sport. |
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They might very well do so as the dollar amount in the grand scheme of things is very small. Conversely, this would open the door to other ostracized officials filing similar lawsuits, perhaps even a small class action suit. So either the NCAA would have to come up with objective analysis now (doubtful they have it), or it may have to eat a small class action suit valued at a couple million bucks while becoming more analytical in their assignment rationales going forward. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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A little off topic, but doesn’t this “hanging on until you croke” thing just epitomize one of the big problems with our avocation? We have to get younger, folks! Wait, I’m being told....really?....ok, never mind. We might get sued if we try to modernize. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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You also have supervisors who will not hire somebody, no matter how good there are, the first time they come to camp. Every NBA official I've talk to about or heard speak on the subject feels campers should pay no more than a nominal fee to cover certain expenses, if that. They feel the supervisor gets hired by the conference(s) to bring in talent and the cost of the camps should be borne by the supervisor and/or conference(s). Currently, we are basically paying someone to give us a try-out and to cover games they are already getting paid for. That's before you get hired. After you get hired there are some conferences where you have to pay to go to staff camp annually or you get dropped. Then you also have conferences where you are required to attend a pre-season clinic ($100-$150) plus hotel, and travel to get there. And if you are a D1 official you also have to pay $200/yearly to Arbiter so you can receive J.D. Collins' emails and videos. Don't get me started, I could write a book on the subject. |
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Peace |
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I remember 20 or so years ago I went to some of the D3 camps and thankfully I got that out of my system after a year or two. No feedback, no teaching....and this is for the privilege of working in a near-empty gym for about $160.....after driving 3-4 hours. No, thanks. |
When it comes to camps, one word comes to mind, "scam".
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I think I may have adjusted a bit for the times. Maybe $140-ish then? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro |
Baby It's Cold Outside (Dean Martin) ...
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Exactly why I decided not to step up and do college about 35 years ago. Plus, back then, there were few high school games on Saturdays (never on Sundays here in Connecticut) and weekends (with the exception of some local Saturday morning recreation games) were family time for me after working high school and recreation games almost every weeknight. |
Gyms are just as full for a lower level college game as I see in most of my high school games. Last night was a perfect example. I had a D3 game last week that had more fans watching the game.
It is all about where you are. But I would rather make $175-$200 for the same basic amount of time. And you see better ball. But to each his own. Peace |
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You're in an area fortunate enough to have several college options in close proximity. That is not the case in a lot of places. A lot of college officials here are driving 3-5 hours (one way) to games on a regular basis. There are certainly local games, but there are only a handful as close as all the HS games. |
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Partner and I talking before tonight’s game. He recalled one day years ago when he had four youth games and then a varsity game on a Saturday. Total fees were $200. Then Mr. College Assignor calls. “Need you tonight for a men’s game at 8pm.” Gave all his local games back to the disdain of the local assignors. Four hours away plus had to pick up partners along the way. Oh, and had to be there two hours early for college. So he left a little after noon, and got back at 2am. Fee = $175. His local assignments suffered from lack of dependability thereafter. Next time Mr. College Assignor called with a last minute assignment, he said “no.” That was the last year he worked college. He doesn’t regret it one bit. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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It would be interesting to see if the lawsuit makes college evaluators and observers be more transparent with their records. Dumping old officials in favor of young officials might seem suspicious, especially with good evaluation reports (according to the officials), unless there is good evidence in the reports that the old officials can't cut it anymore. |
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Again it is what you value. I have been working high school games for a long time and had some fun, but I like to be challenged and working a ton of high school games all the time is not as challenging. The crowds used to be a draw, but not anymore. Peace |
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Peace |
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I agree. Here, the expectation is that you can take a college game, even same day. The HS assignor accepts those without holding it against you....college always wins. If you don't want to give up a HS game for a college game, you block the date. |
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I your calendar says available, you are available. If you don't want a game, block your calendar. Save the assignor 30 phone call trying to find someone who's calendar is accurate. |
No ...
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Of course, back then there was no Arbiter, no email, no cell phones; just snail mail, land line phone calls, and answering "machines". https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.0...=0&w=206&h=169 |
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The problem with Arbiter is that having a game in one group doesn’t always affect how you’re seen in another group. I worked college baseball for over a decade. My main reason for quitting is that my assigner used to call and try to convince me to “dump my HS game” for him. Even though I blocked the date on my Arbiter. Also, he thought it was normal to be able to umpire 18 innings starting at noon on a weekday on a moments notice. He rewarded those who could with postseason recommendations. He used the rest of us to fill his schedules. No thanks, bye bye. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro |
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College basketball conferences have gotten away from using Arbiter, so this is not the same issue. You literally can block a date for any reason and know one really knows unless you actually tell them why there is a block. BlueZebra is used more by college assignors anymore. It is a better site and easier to block things. So if you want to work your little 4th grade games you can do so an no one is going to know unless you tell them you are working 4th grade games. Peace |
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So, I am off the floor. 30+ years and three sports have left me likely in need of a new knee or 2. I can work FB and on the diamond, but the twisting of my knee on a court I can't take day after day. I am also assigning a lot and evaluating. (Note: I've kept my streak going by covering a late flu scratch this week. Varsity boys. I got through it.) What I've learned: I was insane working 60+ HS games a season. Nights at home with family are wonderful. The games go on. I wish I could go back and cut my schedule in half. Some people may want to take it easy, stay close to home, and not drive 3-4 hours to work that night. No need to insult the 4th graders by calling it a "little 4th grade game." Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro |
I don't think I've ever worked more than 35 HS games in a season. I started off my officiating career with strict 50/50 shared custody of 9 and 3 year-old boys, so I've never been a game ho. If I had to choose between working 1-2 D3 games/week vs. 3-5 HS games a week, college wins out easy. I no longer need the $$$ from officiating to help balance my income, so I've been doing it strictly for achievement for quite a while now.
I simply enjoy the college game so much more. It's not only the quality of play and coaching, it's also working with much better officials at the college level. I don't work little kids games b/c I am totally disinterested in those games. I don't want to leave my house for games I don't want to work. Whenever I work off-season, AAU and AAU-type basketball, I work no more than 3 games in a day, usually just once for the entire weekend. Other officials question me as if I'm acting like I'm special. I'm not special, I just choose my work load. I have no obligation to work a whole bunch of rec and AAU-style ball. Emails about shortages do not sway me either. I work off-season either b/c there is a high-level tournament going on or I'm preparing for a camp. I say all that to say, we all make choices in how we provide our services. I choose to subject myself to the inequities of the college game b/c that's the level I want to work, while I limit my availability and workload for other levels b/c that's also what I choose to do. To each his own; nobody is right or wrong for how they choose to pursue this avocation. |
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I would leave my home dreading covering middle school games even if they are 10 minutes from my house, which usually is more than one game a night, on a horrible floor or subpar gym to work games. If I am going to be away from my family I would rather see as many 3 digit numbers as possible for a similar time on the floor. I do not mind driving 3 or 4 hours if I love the experience of what I am doing. I am not doing this all year long. I gave up baseball for a similar reason. I simply did not love the experiences at any level. And I was fortunate to work all levels of amateur baseball at one time. I also know you officiated college football too. Those were much longer days even if the game was 40 minutes away because of what crew chiefs wanted than any basketball game I work for the most part. Having to be on the field a literal hour before the game starts and being at the school sometimes an hour before you get on the field. And those games are on a Saturday where I really could be spending time with my wife and kid. If I can do that like I did this fall, I can work a game 30 minutes from my house (which some games are that close) and be there a little over an hour and after the game I can leave. Heck during football weekends we have to do other stuff and take our time to get out of the locker room with 6 or 7 other people there. If I am going to work a game, I am going to at least work something I enjoy and not deal with some parent that is a coach and never played the game a day in their life. I would rather get yelled at where there is actual accountability by all participants and a larger organization can oversee the behavior of everyone. That does not take place with middle school games. Anything below high school is a waste of my time and that is my choice. So if that insults people to say, "Little 4th Grade Middle school game" then so be it. For one those that work those games often seem to get value out of those games, but that is them. Those games would make me pull my hair out and I have a lot of hair. So even though working a few hours from my home can be sometimes a chore (like I did last night going to another state), at least I enjoy the experience for the most part. And yes you still get yelled at, but you are dealing with a more reasonable environment. Working a middle school game can be a cluster with no personal value to working those games for me. I do not apologize for my stance. Which is why I only work boys games and men's college during the season. I worked hard to make that choice and not turning back now. Peace |
Experiences about accountability and reasonable environments vary widely, obviously, and let's not conflate school and travel/rec ball. My experience is that HS and MS coaches are held accountable, but travel/rec, not so much.
I'd rather do a competitive 4th grade game (yes, there is such a thing) or MS game than a 60-point HS blow-out, especially when I feel like I'm contributing to the kids' game in ways that the typical overweight, over-the-hill or indifferent official can't or won't. And, fortunately for me, with lots of HSs and MSs in the Philadelphia suburbs, I set a 20-mile limit on Arbiter and I still work as much as I care to. That's my experience, and I won't generalize beyond that. |
Quality Over Quantity ...
I don't officiate basketball for the money, but I wouldn't do it for free, and I wouldn't do it if it weren't fun, and challenging.
I gave up recreation/travel/AAU games a long time ago (no longer needed the money). Gave up Catholic middle school games a few years ago. Now I only work games assigned by my local board, which includes middle school games. |
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Peace |
Not The Wild Wild West ...
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All middle school unsporting technical fouls (and anything unsporting, i.e., fans) are reported to our assignment commissioner. He then reports the unsporting activity to the athletic director (of the high school, or school district). Public middle school coaches are usually supervised by the athletic director of the high school, or the athletic director of the entire school district. Not the accountability of high schools, but there is some accountability. Supervising athletic directors do not want unsporting activity in their middle school athletic events, and all public school coaches here in Connecticut are on one year contracts. At least it's not the Wild Wild West. http://addbcdbimages.s3.amazonaws.co...ld_west.jpg?u= R.I.P. Robert Conrad. |
How did we get from a lawsuit involving old college officials trying to hang on to talk about middle school games and the accountability involved or lack thereof?
Grab your popcorn, strap in, and hold on tight, 'cause something big is about to happen. |
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Peace |
Accountability Outside The School Venue ...
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Public middle school athletic events (and coaches) are supervised by the athletic director of the high school, or the athletic director of the entire school district (system) in multiple high school cities, so there is some accountability above the middle school level. Supervising athletic directors, which are not located in the offending school, but are at the high school, or the school district (system) office, do not want unsporting activity in their middle school athletic events (public school coaches, including middle school coaches, here in Connecticut are on yearly evaluations and one year contracts). Our assignment commissioner is simply a middleman in this process, with no penalty authority, gathering unsporting information (including all unsporting technical fouls, even "garden variety" unsporting technical fouls) from the officials and sending it to the athletic director at the high school, or the athletic director of the entire school (system) district. In the case of "ejections" (players or coaches), or other really serious middle school unsporting problems, our assignment commissioner is also required to send the unsporting information to our state interscholastic sports governing body, and that organization will issue penalties, including game suspensions of middle school coaches. In other words there is always accountability outside of the school venue, in the case of "garden variety" technical fouls, usually one step higher than the school principal (i.e., the athletic director), and in the case of serious problems ("ejections"), all the way up to our state interscholastic sports governing body. JRutledge is correct in that accountability almost never goes to the state level unless it's of a serious nature. Every once in a while we hear about a middle school coach getting a one game suspension (happened to the coach of the school where I used to teach) for an ejection, but that's an extremely rare occurrence. Unlike Las Vegas, unsporting activity in the middle school gym doesn't stay in the middle school gym, or even stay in the middle school; at the minimum it gets "bumped up" one level (athletic director outside of the school venue); at the maximum, it gets "bumped up" to the state level. https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.e...=0&w=225&h=170 Unsporting activity at private middle schools (and private prep high schools) serviced by our local board, and many Catholic middle schools not serviced by our local board (but by some of our local board members "moonlighting"), may not have any higher level of accountability. Recreation leagues? Travel leagues? AAU? It's the Wild Wild West in Connecticut. |
Snowball Effect ...
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