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Old Fri Dec 20, 2019, 03:58pm
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End of Game Timing Situation

I had this happen a couple of weeks ago...

Team B is up 2 points and his shooting the first of a bonus free throw with 1.1 seconds on the clock. Team A's coach tells my partner that he wants a time out immediately, should his team get the rebound off a miss. B1 misses the free throw, and sure enough A1 gets the rebound and my partner blows his whistle for the timeout.

I look at the clock and it's down to .1 seconds, and of course, Team A's coach is not happy about it. At first, we aren't going to change the clock since none of us have definite knowledge of how much time should be left on it, even though it's obvious that there's no way a whole second should have come off. But we decide to get together and talk about it, and ultimately decide that we should put some time back on the clock, as... like I said... no way did a whole second go by between when the player from Team A secured the rebound and my partner blew his whistle for the timeout. My partner, who is the R, decides to have them set the clock at .8 seconds.

Turns out Team A threw a pass all the way to the three-point arc, and the guy made a turn-around three at the buzzer to win it for Team A.

I'm fine with our decision, although I thought we probably should have put something like .6 seconds on the clock instead. But the rules don't support our decision because, like I said, we didn't have definite knowledge of the time.

What do you all think?
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Old Fri Dec 20, 2019, 04:06pm
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What does your supervisor/assignor think?
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Old Fri Dec 20, 2019, 06:37pm
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He was OK with what we did.
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Old Fri Dec 20, 2019, 06:49pm
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Definite Information ...

I guess that it depends on what one's definition of definite information is?

5-10-1: The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer to
start or stop the clock properly only when he/she has definite information
relative to the time involved. The exact time observed by the official may
be placed on the clock.


TIMING MISTAKES AND CORRECTIONS

5.10.1 SITUATION A: The score is tied with two seconds remaining in the game. A1 is awarded a bonus free throw. After the ball had been placed at the disposal of A1, B1 disconcerts A1. The free-throw attempt is missed. The timer does not hear the official's whistle sound and permits the clock to start. May the referee put the two seconds back on the clock? RULING: Yes. The rules provide "…the referee may correct the mistake when he/she has definite information relative to time involved." The referee not only orders the timer to put two seconds back on the clock but also awards A1 a substitute throw for the disconcertion by B1.

5.10.1 SITUATION C: As the official rules a three-second lane violation, he/she properly sounds the whistle and gives the signal to stop the clock. While doing this, the official is able to see the exact time remaining in the fourth quarter. The clock shows five seconds remaining. The timer stops the clock: (a) at five seconds; (b) at four seconds; (c) at three seconds; or (d) the time runs out completely. RULING: No correction is needed in (a). In (b), (c) and (d), the referee will order five seconds put on the clock.

5.10.1 SITUATION D: There are six seconds left on the clock in the fourth quarter and the ball is out of bounds in the possession of Team A. The throw-in by A1 touches the official on the court and then goes across the court and out of bounds. The timer permits two seconds to run off the clock. What recourse does the coach of either team have in such situation? RULING: Either coach may step to the scorer’s table and request a 60-second time-out and have the referee come to the table. The coach is permitted to do this under provisions of the coach’s rule. The referee shall come to the sideline and confer with one or both coaches and the timer about the matter; and if the referee has definite knowledge that there were six seconds on the clock when the ball was awarded to Team A for the throw-in, it is the responsibility of the referee to have the two seconds put back on the clock. The timer and scorer and the other official(s) can be used by the referee to gain definite information. If there is no mistake or if it cannot be rectified, the requesting team will be charged with a 60-second time-out. (5-11-4 Exception b; 5-8-4; 10-5-1c)

5.10.1 SITUATION E: Team A scores a goal to lead by four points with 10 seconds remaining in the fourth quarter. Team B then quickly scores with approximately five seconds remaining; now trailing by two points. Team A expects to withhold the ball out of bounds for the throw-in with the time remaining (less than five seconds). The timer mistakenly stops the clock shortly following the Team B goal; the game clock reads 4.0 seconds remaining. The official sounds the whistle, (a) immediately to address the timing mistake; (b) after reaching a throw-in count of three to address the timing mistake; or (c) upon reaching a five-second throw-in count on Team A. RULING: In (a) and (b), Team A will have a throw-in from anywhere along the end line with (a) no change to the game clock; and (b) the game clock corrected to display 1.0 seconds. In (c), the game is over as time has expired. COMMENT: An official’s count may be used to correct a timing mistake. (5-10-2)

5.10.2 SITUATION: Following a violation in the fourth quarter, there are five seconds on the clock as A1 is bounced the ball for a throw-in. The throw-in is completed to A2. The official properly signals the clock to start and immediately begins a closely-guarded count on A2. The official reaches a count of three seconds when B1 fouls A2. The official stops play properly and reports the foul at the table. The timer reports that he/she did not start the clock when the throw-in was touched by A2. The clock still shows five seconds. RULING: The referee will order the clock set at two seconds. The referee has definite knowledge of the amount of time involved in this situation by using the closely-guarded count.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Dec 20, 2019 at 07:11pm.
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Old Fri Dec 20, 2019, 07:26pm
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When end of game is near and clock is an issue (because of score) have a count...Even if you are C or L. Inbounds is touched and you move your arm halfway. That’s definite enough knowledge. .5 of second.

Even if you don’t move your arm you can say it was half second. Put time on clock. Trying to say it was .2 or .3 is likely a guess.

Last edited by BigCat; Sat Dec 21, 2019 at 03:50am.
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Old Sat Dec 21, 2019, 12:32pm
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Not much of a guess... I suspect that the person used the rule on catch and shoot to assist in determining this time. I wish they’d just put it in the book for other situations so it is legitimate.
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Old Sat Dec 21, 2019, 12:57pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin green View Post
Not much of a guess... I suspect that the person used the rule on catch and shoot to assist in determining this time. I wish they’d just put it in the book for other situations so it is legitimate.
Agreed. NCAAW has a *minimum* of .3 in this situation -- I wish they'd allow for a *specific* .3 when the referee(s) know it's immediate.
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Old Mon Dec 23, 2019, 09:51am
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Whether this still applies or not????

2004-05 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations

SITUATION 8: As the official calls a traveling violation, he/she properly sounds the whistle and gives the signal to stop the clock. While doing this, the official is able to see the exact time remaining in the fourth quarter. The clock shows 55 seconds remaining. The timer stops the clock: (a) at 55 seconds; (b) at 54 seconds; (c) at 53 seconds; or (d) 50 seconds. RULING: In (a) and (b), there has been no obvious timing mistake. The timer should be able to react and stop the clock in one second when the whistle is heard and/or the signal is seen. However, in (c) and (d), more than one second of time elapsed from the time the signal was given until the clock was stopped. The referee will order 55 seconds put on the clock in (c) and (d). COMMENT: By interpretation, “lag or reaction” time is limited to one second when the official’s signal is heard and/or seen clearly. The rules do not permit the referee to correct situations resulting in normal reaction time of the timer which results in a “lag” in stopping the clock. Additional time which may subsequently run off the clock (after the one second lag time) is considered a timing mistake and may be corrected. (5-10-1)
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Old Mon Dec 23, 2019, 10:49am
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Exact Time ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indianaref View Post
Whether this still applies or not? ... 2004-05 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations ... By interpretation, “lag or reaction” time is limited to one second when the official’s signal is heard and/or seen clearly. The rules do not permit the referee to correct situations resulting in normal reaction time of the timer which results in a “lag” in stopping the clock. (5-10-1)
"Lag time" ended in 2006-07, when "exact time" was added to the rule.

5-10-1:The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer to
start or stop the clock properly only when he/she has definite information
relative to the time involved. The exact time observed by the official may
be placed on the clock.


COMMENTS ON THE 2006-07 RULES REVISIONS

LAG TIME ELIMINATED (5-10-1): This change eliminates the need for lag time or reaction time on the part of the clock operator. The referee may put the exact time observed by an official back on the game clock. The committee felt that with new clock technology and the ability to observe tenths of a second, when an official has definite knowledge relative to the time involved, he/she should have the ability to put the correct time on the game clock.


Can anybody cite the old "lag time" rule and/or interpretation, I can't find it, other than to cite its elimination?
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Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Dec 23, 2019 at 10:54am.
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Old Mon Dec 23, 2019, 01:32pm
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Thanks Billy!
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  #11 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 23, 2019, 01:42pm
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Lag Time ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Can anybody cite the old "lag time" rule and/or interpretation, I can't find it, other than to cite its elimination?
Is it possible that the only interpretation of "lag time" is cited in Indianaref's citation, 2004-05 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations SITUATION 8?

There must be earlier rules or interpretations?

Looked twice, can't find any.
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“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
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Old Mon Dec 23, 2019, 01:51pm
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Dream ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Is it possible that the only interpretation of "lag time" is cited in Indianaref's citation, 2004-05 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations SITUATION 8? There must be earlier rules or interpretations?
2004-05 Casebook: 5.10.1.B "Reaction time"

Was this ever a rule?

Did I dream this?

This is my quest,
To follow that star
No matter how hopeless,
No matter how far.
(The Impossible Dream)


How about a little help from Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Dec 23, 2019 at 01:56pm.
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Old Thu Dec 26, 2019, 09:32pm
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What level was this? I find it difficult to believe that anyone, less than a professional, could get off a turnaround 3-point jumper in .8 seconds.

Anyway...The ref who was told about calling the TO should have been prepared to immediately blow his whistle on the defensive rebound and immediately look at the clock in order to have direct knowledge of time. That same official, who knew what was to happen, would have prevented all of the other delays/discussions/etc. and the crew would have looked great at such a crucial time.
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Old Fri Dec 27, 2019, 02:25pm
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I'm curious. Can the coach pre-ask for that TO, or does he have to actually ask once his team has possession?
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Old Fri Dec 27, 2019, 02:40pm
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Pre Timeout Request ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by so cal lurker View Post
Can the coach pre-ask for that TO, or does he have to actually ask once his team has possession?
We've discussed this on the Forum in the past.

It is my belief that while a pre-request may get our attention to watch for the subsequent actual request, the coach actually has to follow through with an actual oral or visual request for a time-out.

5-8-3: Time-out occurs and the clock, if running, shall be stopped when an
official: Grants and signals a player’s/head coach’s oral or visual
request for a time-out, such request being granted only when:
a. The ball is at the disposal or in control of a player of his/her team.
b. The ball is dead, unless replacement of a disqualified, or injured
player(s), or a player directed to leave the game is pending, and a
substitute(s) is available and required.


My procedure: "Coach, you still have to request it. I'll be watching".

As usual, check your local listings.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Dec 27, 2019 at 03:19pm.
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